rec.autos.simulators

by **Chris Bloo** » Mon, 24 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Well since reading the reviews from those who have already
played GP3, I am even more eager for it's release.

It can be no coincidence that alot of the GP3 slammers are those
who actually thought F1 2000 was a good sim! These people
obviously seem to have no idea what constitutes a simulation and
anything they write must be treated with alot of suspicion.

I still play GP2, so I will be very happy if the only
improvements are weather and 3D acceleration.

Chris

-----------------------------------------------------------

Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

by **NanaKo** » Mon, 24 Jul 2000 04:00:00

I'm looking forward to its release too. In fact, if you want to read some good
reviews about it, check out this URL.
http://forums.simracingnews.com/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi

by **Pat Dotso** » Mon, 24 Jul 2000 04:00:00

> It can be no coincidence that alot of the GP3 slammers are those
> who actually thought F1 2000 was a good sim! These people
> obviously seem to have no idea what constitutes a simulation and
> anything they write must be treated with alot of suspicion.

Taken as a whole, GP3 is the number one modern F1 sim
now. This is only because of the weather, the AI, and
the telemetry. Other than the weather, it doesn't
advance anywhere beyond GP2.

F1 2000 is a better simulation of vehicle physics than
GP3 is. It's unarguable.

I'll start with the biggest weakness of GP3 physics.
The car pivots about it's center point. Because of
this, four wheel drifts feel really out of whack.
When the car starts drifting, the front wheels seem
to loose all directional force. It is possible to
recover from a slide, but it's not really possible
to control it. I think this is the reason others
have described the feel of the car in GP3 as "dead".
GP2 coming out in, what, 1994, was a break through
because of the independently locking and spinning
wheels, but it didn't fully simulate four
different tire contact patches. GP3 still doesn't.
This is unforgivable for a "sim" in the year 2000.

Secondly, Track BANKING! Where is it at? The A1-
ring in Austria in F1 2000 is awesome, because of
the off-camber sections. In GP3, those sections
feel banked in comparison, because they are flat.
Anyone who complained about the lack of track
accuracy in F1 2000 is nuts if they think GP3
tracks are better!

F1 2000 AI sucks. If it was decent, F1 2000 would
be head and shoulders above GP3, IMO.

--
PD

by **Greg Cisk** » Mon, 24 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Thought???

Obviously.

Well if you get GP3, you will still be playing Gp2 so I am
happy that you will be happy.

--

by **Greg Cisk** » Mon, 24 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Really... I don't say how you can say that in light of
your critism below.

But Gp3 is the best modern F1 simulator??

I think we can stop with this silliness right here. If anyone
thinks a good modern F1 game is one where the car pivots
around it's center point, well I just don't know what to think.

But such people certainly should tell me or anyone else
what to look for in a modern F1 game. I am certain of
that much.

--

by **Mike Blackmor** » Mon, 24 Jul 2000 04:00:00

The weather is amazing - amazing, GPL maybe the best simulation of a
car but GP3 is the best simulation of racing !!!! It's fan ***y
tastic

Regards Mike

On Sun, 23 Jul 2000 09:04:03 -0700, Chris Bloom

>Well since reading the reviews from those who have already
>played GP3, I am even more eager for it's release.

>It can be no coincidence that alot of the GP3 slammers are those
>who actually thought F1 2000 was a good sim! These people
>obviously seem to have no idea what constitutes a simulation and
>anything they write must be treated with alot of suspicion.

>I still play GP2, so I will be very happy if the only
>improvements are weather and 3D acceleration.

>Chris

>-----------------------------------------------------------

>Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
>Up to 100 minutes free!
>http://www.racesimcentral.net/

by **Todd Sorense** » Mon, 24 Jul 2000 04:00:00

LOL. You are pretty strange.

> > Well since reading the reviews from those who have already
> > played GP3, I am even more eager for it's release.

> > It can be no coincidence that alot of the GP3 slammers are those
> > who actually thought F1 2000 was a good sim! These people

> Thought???

> > obviously seem to have no idea what constitutes a simulation and
> > anything they write must be treated with alot of suspicion.

> Obviously.

> > I still play GP2, so I will be very happy if the only
> > improvements are weather and 3D acceleration.

> Well if you get GP3, you will still be playing Gp2 so I am
> happy that you will be happy.

> --

by **BriGu** » Mon, 24 Jul 2000 04:00:00

> >Taken as a whole, GP3 is the number one modern F1 sim
> >now. This is only because of the weather, the AI, and
> >the telemetry. Other than the weather, it doesn't
> >advance anywhere beyond GP2.

> Pat, wouldn't hardware acceleration, 1280x1024, and
> force feedback advance it beyond GP2 as well?

> >F1 2000 is a better simulation of vehicle physics than
> >GP3 is. It's unarguable.

> >I'll start with the biggest weakness of GP3 physics.
> >The car pivots about it's center point. Because of
> >this, four wheel drifts feel really out of whack.
> >When the car starts drifting, the front wheels seem
> >to loose all directional force. It is possible to
> >recover from a slide, but it's not really possible
> >to control it.

> Pat, is it really possible to do a controlled 4 wheel drift
> in a modern F1 car? I've never seen a real, modern F1
> driver accomplish a controlled four-wheel drift with
> any regularity.

I saw the Speedvision coverage of Austria's qualifying - one of the
Jordans (Trulli, methinks) came through the A1 Kurve (or was it Castrol)
in full drift. They had an excellent slow-mo rearview shot of it -
awesome!
--

by **Sjon Stigte** » Mon, 24 Jul 2000 04:00:00

racing

Excellently said... I fully agree... Wise words :)

-- Sjon

> The weather is amazing - amazing, GPL maybe the best simulation of a
> car but GP3 is the best simulation of racing !!!! It's fan ***y
> tastic

> Regards Mike

> On Sun, 23 Jul 2000 09:04:03 -0700, Chris Bloom

> >Well since reading the reviews from those who have already
> >played GP3, I am even more eager for it's release.

> >It can be no coincidence that alot of the GP3 slammers are those
> >who actually thought F1 2000 was a good sim! These people
> >obviously seem to have no idea what constitutes a simulation and
> >anything they write must be treated with alot of suspicion.

> >I still play GP2, so I will be very happy if the only
> >improvements are weather and 3D acceleration.

> >Chris

> >-----------------------------------------------------------

> >Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
> >Up to 100 minutes free!
> >http://www.racesimcentral.net/

by **Pat Dotso** » Mon, 24 Jul 2000 04:00:00

I'm talking about taking the entire product into
account. F1 2000 completely lacks telemetry, and
the AI aren't even close to GP3. GP3 also provides
a lot more data as far as lap time charts and
things. Taken as a whole, I think GP3 is a bit
better, because it's more complete (as it should
be with 7(?) years of development). Taking ony
the driving experience into account (which I do),
F1 2000 is the winner by far.

> > Taken as a whole, GP3 is the number one modern F1 sim
> > now. This is only because of the weather, the AI, and

> Really... I don't say how you can say that in light of
> your critism below.

by **Pat Dotso** » Mon, 24 Jul 2000 04:00:00

> >Taken as a whole, GP3 is the number one modern F1 sim
> >now. This is only because of the weather, the AI, and
> >the telemetry. Other than the weather, it doesn't
> >advance anywhere beyond GP2.

> Pat, wouldn't hardware acceleration, 1280x1024, and
> force feedback advance it beyond GP2 as well?

Not in terms of simulation. Every game does hardware
acceleration, 1280x1024, and force feedback now. I
mean that as a simulation, GP3 isn't far removed from
GP2, in the same way that N3 is nearly the same as N2.

I'm not talking about a balls out GPL-style four
wheel drift. I'm talking about smooth cornering
right at the limit, but within the slip angle
of the tires.

I watch almost no F1 racing. I did see a pass at
the A1-ring last week by Mika Salo (I think) going
into the first turn. He was really ragged, sliding
sideways, but controlled it and completed the pass.
I think it was Alesi he was passing. Alesi passed
him right back because he lost momentum, but he
still controlled the slide.

--
PD

by **Pat Dotso** » Mon, 24 Jul 2000 04:00:00

That's basically what I was saying. GP3 has more
bells and whistles than F1 2000, or GPL for that
matter, and provides an arguably better racing
experience, but it lacks big-time in the driving
experience department.

--
PD

> > GPL maybe the best simulation of a car but GP3 is the best simulation of
> racing

> Excellently said... I fully agree... Wise words :)

by **ElfKin** » Mon, 24 Jul 2000 04:00:00

On Sun, 23 Jul 2000 17:53:40 -0500, Pat Dotson

>That's basically what I was saying. GP3 has more
>bells and whistles than F1 2000, or GPL for that
>matter, and provides an arguably better racing
>experience, but it lacks big-time in the driving
>experience department.

I agree. I have never been after "the total racing experience" so
for me this is a good beacause it lacks the "totally" realistic
physics. If you are what could be called a good sim driver (GPL or F1
2K top 6 finisher, would be good) then you may not like GP3. For me it
is good because it provides a FUN, and for me, very challenging drive.
For others it will be a cake walk.:-( And that is a shame after
having waited so long for it.
**ElfKing**
T'was in a kingdom long ago and far away......

by **Andy Marso** » Tue, 25 Jul 2000 04:00:00

I haven't played GP3 yet, got it on order but can't be bothered to download
it, slow modem :-[
some of the tracks in f1-2000 are pretty shocking. The randon gradient
changes are just silly. The last time I walked from *** square in Monaco
to the mirabeau, it was downhill. F1-2000 has it being uphill. There is no
gradient coming through bridge at silverstone and up to priory, something
which is certainly eveident in real life. Other silly things like the
chicane in hungary (which can be taken in 4th gear in f1-2000) and the
complete mis-representation of Eau Rouge (which you approach perfectly flat
in the game, not downhill as in real life) make this game little more than a
toy. The A1 ring is good fun, but the gradient changes are far too
exaggerated, feels like a rollercoster....
Some of the tracks are nice and accurate such as Albert Park, Nurburgring,
Monza and Sepang but others are pretty bad. The physics are just wierd and
you can drive over most of the curbs and get away with it, even all over the
grass (imola chicanes for instance). It never feels like you are totally in
touch with the car, it seems to drive you sometimes. I thought the tracks in
gp2 were mostly spot on from my experiences, and I'm sure that they have not
significantly changed bar graphics in gp3.
I DO play f1-2000, but it just never seems anything like real to me, whereas
in gp2 you actualy felt like you were there. F1-200 feels more like a
cartoon game than a sim.

Just my view.... :-)
andy

by **Pat Dotso** » Tue, 25 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Interesting. Thanks for the info.

I have no knowledge of F1 tracks, except from racing
on them in sims. So, I guess from that perspective,
I find F1 2000 tracks a lot more fun. When I do see
an F1 race on TV, I can always recognize it, and
can't readily find differences between the real
thing and the F1 2000 simulated tracks.

I raced GP2 exclusively for about a year after it
was released, and GP3 is about the same. I find
the tracks uninspiring - zero camber, and they
seem to be a constant width around the entire
track.

> > Secondly, Track BANKING! Where is it at? The A1-
> > ring in Austria in F1 2000 is awesome, because of
> > the off-camber sections. In GP3, those sections
> > feel banked in comparison, because they are flat.
> > Anyone who complained about the lack of track
> > accuracy in F1 2000 is nuts if they think GP3
> > tracks are better!

> I haven't played GP3 yet, got it on order but can't be bothered to download
> it, slow modem :-[
> some of the tracks in f1-2000 are pretty shocking. The randon gradient
> changes are just silly. The last time I walked from *** square in Monaco
> to the mirabeau, it was downhill. F1-2000 has it being uphill. There is no
> gradient coming through bridge at silverstone and up to priory, something
> which is certainly eveident in real life. Other silly things like the
> chicane in hungary (which can be taken in 4th gear in f1-2000) and the
> complete mis-representation of Eau Rouge (which you approach perfectly flat
> in the game, not downhill as in real life) make this game little more than a
> toy. The A1 ring is good fun, but the gradient changes are far too
> exaggerated, feels like a rollercoster....
> Some of the tracks are nice and accurate such as Albert Park, Nurburgring,
> Monza and Sepang but others are pretty bad. The physics are just wierd and
> you can drive over most of the curbs and get away with it, even all over the
> grass (imola chicanes for instance). It never feels like you are totally in
> touch with the car, it seems to drive you sometimes. I thought the tracks in
> gp2 were mostly spot on from my experiences, and I'm sure that they have not
> significantly changed bar graphics in gp3.
> I DO play f1-2000, but it just never seems anything like real to me, whereas
> in gp2 you actualy felt like you were there. F1-200 feels more like a
> cartoon game than a sim.

> Just my view.... :-)
> andy

rec.autos.simulators

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