rec.autos.simulators

What will become of the Papy Nascar legacy?

Sgt. Lanc

What will become of the Papy Nascar legacy?

by Sgt. Lanc » Thu, 06 Nov 2003 04:44:44



You can find "the point" by reading this thread and the previous "bash
EA" threads. People are comparing Papy to EA and vice versa although
they're not the same thing. It's so easy to bash the ISI sims, because
the folks at  EA are greedy ***ers. Using that theory you could say
that N2003 sucks because Sierra are greedy ***ers who just want to
make money creating NASCAR sims. Well, that won't happen anymore.
People don't liken Papy to Sierra so why do they do that with ISI/EA?

The bottom line is, that it's ISI making the sims and from what I've
seen in interviews and websites they are just as enthusiastic about
making realistic racing sims as Papy (not Sierra) are.

ISI and Papy are the best by far at the moment. What sims would we
have without them? Nothing. N2003 is better than anything ISI has done
so far, but the difference in physics for example isn't that big as
some guys suggest. The only area where ISI is still a long way from
Papy is multiplayer and the basic user interface including replays
etc. In modding options ISI's sims eat Papy for breakfast.

If only ISI would enhance their game engine a bit to fix these things
(the basic game engine has remained the same for a long while, but
NT2004 has dedicated server support so they're on the right road) they
would be right up there with Papy.

There's not that much to look forward to in sim titles, except maybe
for RBR, GTR and Racing Legends. So here's hoping that ISI can really
match Papy with their next sim.

This is the end of my sim rant for now. Thanks for reading.

Tony Rickar

What will become of the Papy Nascar legacy?

by Tony Rickar » Thu, 06 Nov 2003 06:04:22


> The only area where ISI is still a long way from
> Papy is multiplayer and the basic user interface including replays
> etc. In modding options ISI's sims eat Papy for breakfast.

Personally I would add graphics engine, sound, track modelling and AI to
that list. The graphics one is very personal but I just don't like the ISI
graphical style in comparison to Papy. Agreed on the mods but the underlying
engine just doesn't cut it for me.

In my view it will need something of a quantum leap. ISI have steadily
developed their products but there are still many of the weird things
happening with the AI, controller oddities and issues like rewinding replays
after damage to find the damage doesn't disappear that were around 3 or 4
versions before. I think a whole new engine is probably required to make the
leap you are hoping for.

I am not against the evolutionary approach, and if it funds ongoing
development then that is good, but don't expect a major leap forward in the
next release IMHO.

Cheers
Tony

John DiFoo

What will become of the Papy Nascar legacy?

by John DiFoo » Thu, 06 Nov 2003 09:27:35

On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 15:19:43 +0000 (UTC), "Ashley McConnell"





>> > Poly-based physics = garbage.

>> Well, poly-based game engines with physics incorporated into that is the
>> future of ***.  I said in the past, that when this will happen
>> completely, games will become "less" realistic but it's the risk they have
>> to take.  The computing power just isn't there, heck still in F1C there's
>> way too much stuff that's not poly-based and still running in it's own
>> virtual world.

>> Is poly-based physics garbage presently? Yes.  But I don't want sims in 10
>> years to still have completely different entities, physics-wise and
>> game-engine wise.  Like Papy has.  I don't want my car, graphically on
>> screen, to be unrelated in it's world to what really happens behind the
>> scene with the physics.  That's not the way to go.

>Papy's tracks are surface based, which means the surface is described by a
>formula.  Any position on each surface can be found by using U/V barycentric
>(sp?) co-ordinates (generated by collision detection).  This accurately
>determines the height of the ground and therefore how much the tyre is
>"squashed".

>This can be done relatively easily (and quickly) with todays processing
>power (and yesterdays!).  Also this "physics" representation is "tesselated"
>(turned into polys) depending on how close the viewer is to each surface
>(more polys for closer surfaces).  Therefore the "gfx" representation is
>exactly the same as the physics representation.

>I'm pretty sure thats how its done for Papy, it can certainly done on
>today's hardware.  Native support for surfaces will be (is?) supported in
>hardware soon (if not already).

>Thats how I intend to do things at least :)

>All the best,
>Ash
>http://www.racesimcentral.net/

This entire discussion begs the question of how much more
accurate future sim developers can get than Papy's current
models.  What will racing sims be like in 10 years?  20?  50?
It would seem to me that future sims will just be refinements
of what Papy (and some others) have done...

          John DiFool

Andre

What will become of the Papy Nascar legacy?

by Andre » Thu, 06 Nov 2003 09:31:19

On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 00:27:35 GMT, John DiFool


>This entire discussion begs the question of how much more
>accurate future sim developers can get than Papy's current
>models.  What will racing sims be like in 10 years?  20?  50?
>It would seem to me that future sims will just be refinements
>of what Papy (and some others) have done...

Of course they will. Sims will just get closer to reality as computing
power increases.
--

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Eric Leblan

What will become of the Papy Nascar legacy?

by Eric Leblan » Thu, 06 Nov 2003 09:36:16

We're missing G force.

Hope it happens before i get 70 years old.

EL


> On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 15:19:43 +0000 (UTC), "Ashley McConnell"




> >> > Poly-based physics = garbage.

> >> Well, poly-based game engines with physics incorporated into that is
the
> >> future of ***.  I said in the past, that when this will happen
> >> completely, games will become "less" realistic but it's the risk they
have
> >> to take.  The computing power just isn't there, heck still in F1C
there's
> >> way too much stuff that's not poly-based and still running in it's own
> >> virtual world.

> >> Is poly-based physics garbage presently? Yes.  But I don't want sims in
10
> >> years to still have completely different entities, physics-wise and
> >> game-engine wise.  Like Papy has.  I don't want my car, graphically on
> >> screen, to be unrelated in it's world to what really happens behind the
> >> scene with the physics.  That's not the way to go.

> >Papy's tracks are surface based, which means the surface is described by
a
> >formula.  Any position on each surface can be found by using U/V
barycentric
> >(sp?) co-ordinates (generated by collision detection).  This accurately
> >determines the height of the ground and therefore how much the tyre is
> >"squashed".

> >This can be done relatively easily (and quickly) with todays processing
> >power (and yesterdays!).  Also this "physics" representation is
"tesselated"
> >(turned into polys) depending on how close the viewer is to each surface
> >(more polys for closer surfaces).  Therefore the "gfx" representation is
> >exactly the same as the physics representation.

> >I'm pretty sure thats how its done for Papy, it can certainly done on
> >today's hardware.  Native support for surfaces will be (is?) supported in
> >hardware soon (if not already).

> >Thats how I intend to do things at least :)

> >All the best,
> >Ash
> >http://www.racesimcentral.net/

> This entire discussion begs the question of how much more
> accurate future sim developers can get than Papy's current
> models.  What will racing sims be like in 10 years?  20?  50?
> It would seem to me that future sims will just be refinements
> of what Papy (and some others) have done...

>           John DiFool

Eldre

What will become of the Papy Nascar legacy?

by Eldre » Thu, 06 Nov 2003 13:58:40



>exactly my point.. a modable product with excellent net code.

F1C?  Define "excellent".  I think the lack of a dedicated server sucks, but
maybe I'm the only one who feels that way...

Eldred
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frederickso

What will become of the Papy Nascar legacy?

by frederickso » Thu, 06 Nov 2003 14:59:25



"Charlie B"

> >exactly my point.. a modable product with excellent net code.

> F1C?  Define "excellent".  I think the lack of a dedicated server sucks,
but
> maybe I'm the only one who feels that way...

If excellent means 'sucks donkey***' then yea the netcode is excellent
Charlie

What will become of the Papy Nascar legacy?

by Charlie » Thu, 06 Nov 2003 15:20:16

morons. <g>

Read both my posts. I said it would be a GOOD THING FOR EA TO BUY PAPY. A
modable product with excellent net code WOULD BE THE RESULT.
Once again for the extra thick: EA buys Papy. EA uses Papys netcode, hence
excellent netcode. lol.





> "Charlie B"

> > >exactly my point.. a modable product with excellent net code.

> > F1C?  Define "excellent".  I think the lack of a dedicated server sucks,
> but
> > maybe I'm the only one who feels that way...

> If excellent means 'sucks donkey***' then yea the netcode is excellent

elrik

What will become of the Papy Nascar legacy?

by elrik » Thu, 06 Nov 2003 12:16:51


First,  hope that you get to 70 years old.   ;o)

Elrikk

jason moy

What will become of the Papy Nascar legacy?

by jason moy » Thu, 06 Nov 2003 17:07:23

On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 06:20:16 GMT, "Charlie B"


>morons. <g>

>Read both my posts. I said it would be a GOOD THING FOR EA TO BUY PAPY. A
>modable product with excellent net code WOULD BE THE RESULT.

I still don't understand the "modable product" part.  If they bought
Papy and had them make the next Thunder title, why would their
software suddenly be more modable?  F1C is modable because of the way
ISI designed the software, and not because of some agenda from the
people at EA.

Jason

Gerry Aitken

What will become of the Papy Nascar legacy?

by Gerry Aitken » Fri, 07 Nov 2003 02:42:19


> I have.  What's your point?

What do you think his point is, you ***wit!?

--

Gerry Aitken?

...and a friend shall lose a friend's hammer. - Book of Cyril, chapter
6, verse 16

This e-mail has been scanned for all known viruses by a fish called Colin.

Eldre

What will become of the Papy Nascar legacy?

by Eldre » Fri, 07 Nov 2003 02:48:39

Well, you don't have to be a*** about it...

Eldred
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Larr

What will become of the Papy Nascar legacy?

by Larr » Fri, 07 Nov 2003 13:17:42

You seem to think the _Developer_ has creative control.  They don't.

What the publisher says goes.  That has been seen time and time again.

-Larry


Larr

What will become of the Papy Nascar legacy?

by Larr » Fri, 07 Nov 2003 13:20:45

Automotive reality, or Marketing reality?  That's the ugly question (at
least for SIM racers).

-Larry


> On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 00:27:35 GMT, John DiFool

> >This entire discussion begs the question of how much more
> >accurate future sim developers can get than Papy's current
> >models.  What will racing sims be like in 10 years?  20?  50?
> >It would seem to me that future sims will just be refinements
> >of what Papy (and some others) have done...

> Of course they will. Sims will just get closer to reality as computing
> power increases.
> --

> Help make Usenet a better place: English is read downwards,
> please don't top post. Trim messages to quote only relevent text.
> Check groups.google.com before asking a question.

Larr

What will become of the Papy Nascar legacy?

by Larr » Fri, 07 Nov 2003 13:31:28

You ARE kidding, right ?

Project WildFire ring a bell ?

-Larry


> On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 21:38:01 -0600, "Don Burnette"

> They can't make any more F1 games, and no one makes mods for the
> nascar titles.
> Jason


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