rec.autos.simulators

What will become of the Papy Nascar legacy?

ymenar

What will become of the Papy Nascar legacy?

by ymenar » Wed, 05 Nov 2003 09:53:08


> Poly-based physics = garbage.

Well, poly-based game engines with physics incorporated into that is the
future of ***.  I said in the past, that when this will happen
completely, games will become "less" realistic but it's the risk they have
to take.  The computing power just isn't there, heck still in F1C there's
way too much stuff that's not poly-based and still running in it's own
virtual world.

Is poly-based physics garbage presently? Yes.  But I don't want sims in 10
years to still have completely different entities, physics-wise and
game-engine wise.  Like Papy has.  I don't want my car, graphically on
screen, to be unrelated in it's world to what really happens behind the
scene with the physics.  That's not the way to go.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Charlie

What will become of the Papy Nascar legacy?

by Charlie » Wed, 05 Nov 2003 10:47:47

Combining EA and Papy would be great IMO. Some excellent net code combined
with something other than Nascar...

How could that be a bad thing?



> > I know this is old hat but I was just wondering if Nascar Racing 2003
will
> > live on as the greatest nascar sim ever developed.
> > I heard EA Sports is looking at taking over the PC reins at Papyrus.
> Anyone
> > heard anymore about this disappointing news?
> > Gawd, what the fudge does EA know about physics engines?? Their "semi"
> > latest incarnation NFSHP2 was a disaster.

> The important words here are "looking at".

> NR2003 can be enjoyed for a couple of years.

> --
> -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
> Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Bruce Kennewel

What will become of the Papy Nascar legacy?

by Bruce Kennewel » Wed, 05 Nov 2003 10:59:59

Nice one, Byron. what did you use - a random phrase generator?
"Spastic stench"?!!!!!!!!!
Where the hell did you get this term?
When has there been a stench associated with spasticity, and, more to the
point, are those who suffer this disability aware of the smell they are
creating?

Bruce.

jason moy

What will become of the Papy Nascar legacy?

by jason moy » Wed, 05 Nov 2003 11:10:54

On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 19:53:08 -0500, "ymenard"


>Is poly-based physics garbage presently? Yes.  But I don't want sims in 10
>years to still have completely different entities, physics-wise and
>game-engine wise.  Like Papy has.  I don't want my car, graphically on
>screen, to be unrelated in it's world to what really happens behind the
>scene with the physics.  That's not the way to go.

I agree, but the computing power isn't there to render tracks with
enough polygons at a high enough frequency for the reactions between
car and track to be convincing.  I think ISI has done a heck of a job
with what they have, but I'd much rather have a Papyrus or Crammond
system where the road surface is rendered in more detail in the
physics engine than in the graphics engine until we have machines that
can pump out the level of detailed required at a high enough frame
rate to make poly-physics work.

Jason

jason moy

What will become of the Papy Nascar legacy?

by jason moy » Wed, 05 Nov 2003 11:11:40

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 01:47:47 GMT, "Charlie B"


>Combining EA and Papy would be great IMO. Some excellent net code combined
>with something other than Nascar...

If EA bought Papy, why would they make anything besides NASCAR?

That's all EA makes now.

Jason

Eldre

What will become of the Papy Nascar legacy?

by Eldre » Wed, 05 Nov 2003 12:05:34


>I have.  What's your point?

>Papy isn't perfect, but when it comes to Physics EA can't touch them.

>EA Sims still feel like the car rotates on a pin about 2 feet in front of
>the windshield.

>Kinda like a slot-car, but without the grip :)

You know, I've seen this knock about driving games before.  That, or cars
turning on their CG.  I've honestly never had that feel...  Maybe that points
to why I have such trouble with driving games.  I can't FEEL the car...?

Eldred

Eldred
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TDRacin

What will become of the Papy Nascar legacy?

by TDRacin » Wed, 05 Nov 2003 12:13:21

I'm confused, what's your point?    lol


Don Burnett

What will become of the Papy Nascar legacy?

by Don Burnett » Wed, 05 Nov 2003 12:38:01


> On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 01:47:47 GMT, "Charlie B"

>> Combining EA and Papy would be great IMO. Some excellent net code
>> combined with something other than Nascar...

> If EA bought Papy, why would they make anything besides NASCAR?

> That's all EA makes now.

> Jason

I don't know about that, I am having a lot of fun with F1 Challenge and the
recent ETCC mod.

--
Don Burnette

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Charlie

What will become of the Papy Nascar legacy?

by Charlie » Wed, 05 Nov 2003 12:42:19

exactly my point.. a modable product with excellent net code.



> > On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 01:47:47 GMT, "Charlie B"

> >> Combining EA and Papy would be great IMO. Some excellent net code
> >> combined with something other than Nascar...

> > If EA bought Papy, why would they make anything besides NASCAR?

> > That's all EA makes now.

> > Jason

> I don't know about that, I am having a lot of fun with F1 Challenge and
the
> recent ETCC mod.

> --
> Don Burnette

> remove clothes when replying via email

Steve Smit

What will become of the Papy Nascar legacy?

by Steve Smit » Wed, 05 Nov 2003 12:58:42

<<Doug Arnao has absolutely nailed the F1 model as close as is possible
using this engine.>>

True.



> >The gent diong the physics on EA's NASCAR Thunder 2003 is none other
> >then Doug Arnao. This guy was consulted by Papyrus for  GPL. And as
> >many of you know he did the physics in GTR2002 as well..

> Doug created the parameters for the cars, not the physics engine
> itself.

> Other people have done good work with the parameters they use to model
> the cars (Simbin, ETCC mod, etc) but at the end of the day the core
> physics engine is incapable of creating a truly convincing simulation
> of driving a race car.  And I'm saying this with the opinion that Doug
> Arnao has absolutely nailed the F1 model as close as is possible using
> this engine.

> At the end of the day, in Nascar 2003 you can build a setup using
> real-world values and end up with a car that will take all comers in a
> long race.  In F1C/NT2004 you still have to do odd things to the
> setups in order to make the car work with all of the unrealistic low
> frequency/high amplitude bumps that litter even the smoothest track.
> I can tell you right now my fastest and most consistent laps in F1C
> are set using setups that no one in their right mind would try to run
> in real life, but compromises have to be made for the way the tires
> and suspension in the sim react to the wild gyrations in track
> surface.

> Jason

jason moy

What will become of the Papy Nascar legacy?

by jason moy » Wed, 05 Nov 2003 14:01:14

On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 21:38:01 -0600, "Don Burnette"


>I don't know about that, I am having a lot of fun with F1 Challenge and the
>recent ETCC mod.

They can't make any more F1 games, and no one makes mods for the
nascar titles.

If EA bought Papyrus, I imagine they'd dump the ISI engine and use
Papy's vastly superior code.  Which would kill the type of mods we see
now for F1C.  Without being able to get the F1 license (Sony has
exclusives on it) and with a long term exclusive NASCAR license I
imagine they'd continue pumping out nothing but nascar sims.

Jason

Steve Simpso

What will become of the Papy Nascar legacy?

by Steve Simpso » Wed, 05 Nov 2003 17:07:45

Don't worry, it's only Larry that harps about that.  He's just plain wrong
IMO.  It's almost as if he drives from the behind view because the car does
pivot from that view unlike GPL where the car stays fixed to the view when
driving from behind.

Byron John Forbe

What will become of the Papy Nascar legacy?

by Byron John Forbe » Thu, 06 Nov 2003 00:03:10

   No, they're spastics and thus unaware of anything much really!


Ashley McConnel

What will become of the Papy Nascar legacy?

by Ashley McConnel » Thu, 06 Nov 2003 00:19:43



> > Poly-based physics = garbage.

> Well, poly-based game engines with physics incorporated into that is the
> future of ***.  I said in the past, that when this will happen
> completely, games will become "less" realistic but it's the risk they have
> to take.  The computing power just isn't there, heck still in F1C there's
> way too much stuff that's not poly-based and still running in it's own
> virtual world.

> Is poly-based physics garbage presently? Yes.  But I don't want sims in 10
> years to still have completely different entities, physics-wise and
> game-engine wise.  Like Papy has.  I don't want my car, graphically on
> screen, to be unrelated in it's world to what really happens behind the
> scene with the physics.  That's not the way to go.

Papy's tracks are surface based, which means the surface is described by a
formula.  Any position on each surface can be found by using U/V barycentric
(sp?) co-ordinates (generated by collision detection).  This accurately
determines the height of the ground and therefore how much the tyre is
"squashed".

This can be done relatively easily (and quickly) with todays processing
power (and yesterdays!).  Also this "physics" representation is "tesselated"
(turned into polys) depending on how close the viewer is to each surface
(more polys for closer surfaces).  Therefore the "gfx" representation is
exactly the same as the physics representation.

I'm pretty sure thats how its done for Papy, it can certainly done on
today's hardware.  Native support for surfaces will be (is?) supported in
hardware soon (if not already).

Thats how I intend to do things at least :)

All the best,
Ash
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Gerry Aitken

What will become of the Papy Nascar legacy?

by Gerry Aitken » Thu, 06 Nov 2003 02:14:45


>    No, they're spastics and thus unaware of anything much really!

That word it no longer used to describe that condition. But English
being a living, breathing language, the same word is now used to
describe someone like you, bryon. As in, "That Bryon Forbes is a right
spas." or "That Bryon Forbes is a right spacy c*&t."

--

Gerry Aitken?

...and a friend shall lose a friend's hammer. - Book of Cyril, chapter
6, verse 16

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