rec.autos.simulators

by **rrevve** » Wed, 28 Aug 2002 04:31:24

>> You have great looking pedals, but I would get rid
>> of the bungee if I were you .. :)

>Apples and oranges. You can't transpose the problems those bungees suffered
>on this application. It only explains why bungees got a bad wrap,

Bungees with a 'bad wrap'?

:)

by **Schoone** » Wed, 28 Aug 2002 04:46:20

I believe you are right, all the feedback to date on the bungees seems to
point to issues in the TM wheel which like you say is a totally different
setup.
Just to give a bit more background on the use of bungee, my father is a
commercial fisherman and has been using bungee on lobster traps for over 15
years now to hold the doors on the traps closed. These bungees are exposed
to salt water, sun, and rough usage and good quality bungee can stand up
for years in this use with no breakages and little issues with stretching.
There will always be some stretching over time but I think this can be
addressed with retensioning when needed, which would be rather infrequent
event. In my person view I would rather have a slight loss on tension over
a long period of time than the possible total failure of springs during a
critical race.
Again the current pedal design will work with both setup with no changes
required and that is the reason for the design, to leave such choices open
to the individual.

by **Jan Verschuere** » Wed, 28 Aug 2002 06:18:52

Ok, ironic typo... I asumme you know what I meant.

Jan.
=---

by **Gerry Aitke** » Wed, 28 Aug 2002 05:04:16

> I believe you are right, all the feedback to date on the bungees seems to
> point to issues in the TM wheel which like you say is a totally different
> setup.

I agree. What next, the springs in the Actlab Precision pedals snapped
so springs are bad?

Gerry

by **Gerry Aitke** » Wed, 28 Aug 2002 05:04:01

> I believe you are right, all the feedback to date on the bungees seems to
> point to issues in the TM wheel which like you say is a totally different
> setup.

I agree. What next, the springs in the Actlab Precision pedals snapped
so springs are bad?

Gerry

by **Mar** » Wed, 28 Aug 2002 18:28:48

> For anyone interested we have been making some new pedals first for our own
> use but possibly for resale either as plans, kits, or full units if there is
> any demand. Here area few pictures of what we have come up with in the
> prototype. Still in the testing/design stages but wanted to show what we
> have for those interested.
> Our main goals were simple and solid. Unit is made wit aircraft grade
> aluminium, bolts, bearings.

Looks like a good start. If nothing else, they look ultra tough and
that's a vital step.

Here's my suggestions:

Allow user to disable pivot on accelerator. Don't like the idea of a
pivot at all (from MOMO experience).

Allow range of movement to be adjusted. Generally, aren't brake
pedals a little closer than the accelerator? Have I explained this
correctly? Going on your design, looking at a profile view, I would
expect the brake to be a tilted a bit futher back than the
accelerator. This aids heel and toeing which I manage without too
much of a problem with my TM F1/NASCAR Pro pedals. Heel and toeing
with a pivot on the gas could also be an issue.

Floor mounted design pedals should allow the user's foot to slide on
the pedal pad. I tried aftermarket pedal pads with grips on my rig so
found this out at my cost. Top mounted pedals, OK, as you don't wanna
have your foot slip off underneath, but floor hinged... The pedal
pads you've got there don't look too bad - I wear plastic soled
slippers when simming - but for sock wearers they look like they may
be a bit uncomfortable...

Send me a set to test for you! Alternatively, Don't charge me too
much when I want to buy them!!

Keep up the good work,

Mark
Reading, UK

by **Schoone** » Wed, 28 Aug 2002 20:12:20

Thanks for the comments. The brake and clutch pedals pads are currently
locked in place but have an adjustable angle. The gas is currently pivoting
but as you mention we are considering locking it as well. The pivot has some
benefits put also has the drawbacks you noted.
The pads used will probably not be the final type used. We have looked at a
variety of different after market pads and are trying to find something that
fits well, looks good. and most of all is functional for the sim racer.
Just because something looks "racey" doesn't mean it will work well under
sim racing conditions.
The amount of travel will be adjustable on the pedals and that is what we
are currently working on. Right now they have a bit too much travel,
especially in the brake.
FYI - I am a "sock" driver as well so we will be trying to make these as
comfortable as possible. Right now these are just a prototype and we are
working from here to perfect things.
The initial issues we were looking at was getting a solid material for the
pedals, making sure the pot mechanism worked, getting smooth pedal movement
and hinging with the bellcrank bearings, simple way to mount the pads, and
the basic design down for the fibreglass shell. From here we will begin
more detail tweaking of the system.
If things work out and we end up with a decent working set of pedals then we
will look into possibly reselling them if anyone is interested but right now
it is a R&D project.

by **Wayne Bradle** » Wed, 28 Aug 2002 22:07:58

> > I believe you are right, all the feedback to date on the bungees seems
to
> > point to issues in the TM wheel which like you say is a totally
different
> > setup.

> I agree. What next, the springs in the Actlab Precision pedals snapped
> so springs are bad?

> Gerry

Evidently they are on the Act Labs if they truely break often. What is your
point?

by **Schoone** » Wed, 28 Aug 2002 22:32:31

I think the point was that any component can fail in a given setup based on
a number of conditions. Bungee has a bad rap due to the T2 wheel it seems.
The comment on the Act Labs springs I think was meant to show that just
because springs fail on that unit doesn't mean all springs are bad.
Typically people base opinions on one bad experience, what I am looking to
find out is if there is a general trend where a certain type of
material/component is failing or not working properly or if it is a case of
problems under one specific application.
The Act Labs issues seems to stem from a poor/flawed material used in the
spring itself and not a case where the concept of using a spring is the
problem.

> > > I believe you are right, all the feedback to date on the bungees seems
> to
> > > point to issues in the TM wheel which like you say is a totally
> different
> > > setup.

> > I agree. What next, the springs in the Actlab Precision pedals snapped
> > so springs are bad?

> > Gerry

> Evidently they are on the Act Labs if they truely break often. What is
your
> point?

by **Darf** » Wed, 28 Aug 2002 23:52:06

I Agree, IMHO the bungee is not the way.
I think that standard, good quality pull springs, of the Automotive type,
attached to an adjustable anchor point, to allow adjustment of tension,
would be a better long term proposition.This would allow people to adjust
the peddle tension to their individual taste.
I converted my old Thrustmaster pedals as described and I have never broken
a spring . Gone so far for 5 years .The original springs used to last 3
months. I just used a good anchor point at both ends that allows movement
against the spring hooks. The springs will fail if movement is restricted
and the spring hooks bend at every pedal depression. The other point is that
if the pull springs ever do break, (as you say in the middle of a race) it
would take me 2 min to change them. The Old design would take about 1 hour
to change, as they were part of the pivot bolt assembly. My 10 year old son
could have designed them better. The springs that I used are available at
any corner hardware shop.
Good Luck with your project

Darf

by **Ken MacKa** » Fri, 30 Aug 2002 03:48:08

> <snip>
> In my person view I would rather have a slight loss on tension over
> a long period of time than the possible total failure of springs during a
> critical race.
> Again the current pedal design will work with both setup with no changes
> required and that is the reason for the design, to leave such choices open
> to the individual.

I have no problems with bungees, but the cheap springs from the local hardware
store have lasted in my pedals for about 2 years now. But if you do go with
springs and easy way to avoid the sudden failure is to use 2 per pedal, that way
if one fails you still have some return force. Plus 2 should give more
flexibility in adjusting the tension using springs with different rates.

Ken
PS If you want a hand converting these for connecting to a usb ForceRS let me
know (I'm nearby). I'll even test them for you :-).

by **Schoone** » Fri, 30 Aug 2002 03:57:04

2 mins to change a spring is a few laps if you happen to be in the midst of
a points race.
But I understand your point. As I mentioned before the quality of the
bungee is the key. You can buy cheap bungee just as you can buy cheap
springs, you can also buy MIL Spec bungee.

by **Darf** » Fri, 30 Aug 2002 08:56:40

Looks like you are determined to go with the bungee, despite all of the
spring votes.
You haven't got a *** *** have you?

:-)

Darf

by **Schoone** » Fri, 30 Aug 2002 09:20:00

Not determined to go either way, just looking for feedback. To date there
is no real argument against the use of high quality bungee so we will
probably still go with it for now.

> Looks like you are determined to go with the bungee, despite all of the
> spring votes.
> You haven't got a *** *** have you?

> :-)

> Darf

> > 2 mins to change a spring is a few laps if you happen to be in the midst
> of
> > a points race.
> > But I understand your point. As I mentioned before the quality of the
> > bungee is the key. You can buy cheap bungee just as you can buy cheap
> > springs, you can also buy MIL Spec bungee.

by **Joe Marque** » Fri, 30 Aug 2002 13:20:07

But springs are more popular. Shouldn't you just use whatever is more
popular here? ;0)

--
Joe Marques

> Not determined to go either way, just looking for feedback. To date there
> is no real argument against the use of high quality bungee so we will
> probably still go with it for now.

> > Looks like you are determined to go with the bungee, despite all of the
> > spring votes.
> > You haven't got a *** *** have you?

> > :-)

> > Darf

> > > 2 mins to change a spring is a few laps if you happen to be in the
midst
> > of
> > > a points race.
> > > But I understand your point. As I mentioned before the quality of the
> > > bungee is the key. You can buy cheap bungee just as you can buy cheap
> > > springs, you can also buy MIL Spec bungee.

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