rec.autos.simulators

by **don hodgdo** » Tue, 27 Aug 2002 02:54:24

I gave up bungees when I gave up Thrustmaster controllers. An spring,
adjustable for tension, would be much better. Overall a good solid design
though.

--
don

-------------------------------------
BAPOM
Alternative Program Covers for GPL
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

by **Schoone** » Tue, 27 Aug 2002 04:52:19

We will give the spring at try as well, shouldn't be any issue to use either
in this design and that was part of the plan from day one, to not limit the
unit to using any special springs and proprietary components. The bungee in
the current system is easily adjusted for tension now but it seems most
people prefer the look of a spring over the bungee for some reason.

> > SNIP

> > A number of people have asked why bungee instead of the spring and we
were
> > curious as to what issues/concerns people have with the bungee as
perhaps
> we
> > have overlooked a problem in using it, or is it more an issue that it is
> > different?

> I gave up bungees when I gave up Thrustmaster controllers. An spring,
> adjustable for tension, would be much better. Overall a good solid design
> though.

> --
> don

> -------------------------------------
> BAPOM
> Alternative Program Covers for GPL
> http://www.trilon.com/bapom/

by **Dave Henri** » Tue, 27 Aug 2002 04:56:38

"Schooner"

. The bungee in
that's where the marketing folks come in. If you TELL everyone bungee is
better...than 'most' of them will beleive you. The technocrats however,
will always go for a solution that 'seems' more hi-tech.
dave henrie

by **Schoone** » Tue, 27 Aug 2002 05:28:04

Your exactly right. From our past experience in other uses and testing to
date on the pedals the bungee seems as good as or better than a spring - no
complete failure issues, unlimited settings of tension, easy installation,
easy adjustability, however the vast majority of the comments we have
received to date has been centered on the use of bungee over springs. This
was some what of a surprise considering the past history of spring breakage
in units such as the Act-Labs performance pedals. We are trying to design
something solid and simple but also that people will like, and if springs
are better and more accepted then we will try them as well.
I would be curious to hear of any past experience with bungee in a similar
use where it has been an issue however, just trying to gather as much
information as possible so that we come up with the best solution, and not
one with known problems, or overlooking a solution that works but is just
not considered "proper".

by **Joe Marque** » Tue, 27 Aug 2002 06:33:31

Please don't drop bungies because springs are "more accepted" by the masses.
Think of the old sales saying: "Don't sell people what they want, sell them
what they need." Go with bungies if they are a better overall solution
(performance, price, customizability, durability, and accessibility). I
(and probably most people) will gladly accept them if they perform as
promised.

BTW, the pedals look great. I'm certainly in the market to upgrade the
mediocre MOMO pedals.

--
Joe Marques

> Your exactly right. From our past experience in other uses and testing to
> date on the pedals the bungee seems as good as or better than a spring -
no
> complete failure issues, unlimited settings of tension, easy installation,
> easy adjustability, however the vast majority of the comments we have
> received to date has been centered on the use of bungee over springs.
This
> was some what of a surprise considering the past history of spring
breakage
> in units such as the Act-Labs performance pedals. We are trying to design
> something solid and simple but also that people will like, and if springs
> are better and more accepted then we will try them as well.
> I would be curious to hear of any past experience with bungee in a similar
> use where it has been an issue however, just trying to gather as much
> information as possible so that we come up with the best solution, and not
> one with known problems, or overlooking a solution that works but is just
> not considered "proper".

> > "Schooner"

> > . The bungee in
> > > the current system is easily adjusted for tension now but it seems
most
> > > people prefer the look of a spring over the bungee for some reason.

> > > "don hodgdon"
> > that's where the marketing folks come in. If you TELL everyone
bungee
> is
> > better...than 'most' of them will beleive you. The technocrats
however,
> > will always go for a solution that 'seems' more hi-tech.
> > dave henrie

by **Joe Marque** » Tue, 27 Aug 2002 08:59:29

What the hell is a bungie? You think I had the dev team Bungie on my mind
instead of bungee cords? :0)

--
Joe Marques

by **Jan Verschuere** » Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:26:28

Springs are good when used in "tension", i.e. stretching the spring, but not
in "torsion", i.e. using its resistance to being wound tighter. Although
there is an adjustability issue with both approaches.

In your application/setup I think bungees are the way to go. Put it this
way, before I had the MOMO wheel, the pedals of which are adequate
(regardless of what anyone says), I used an LWFF wired to TM NasPro pedals
converted to bungee/squash ball. I've improved some of my times set with
this combination since, but those are more due to better
technique/line/incorporating LFB rather than any innate qualities of the,
spring return, MOMO pedals.

Jan.
=---

by **Schoone** » Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:39:37

I think any device that will give the required resistance will work fine.
The biggest issue with a lot of springs as you say is the mounting, most of
which seem to use the compression technique. My experience with these is
that when the spring starts to fail your pedals don't return to the top.
and since they don't usually contain a lot of over loading there is little
room for failure before they drop off less than full return.
The hopes with the bungee is that the loading will always be enough for full
return even after extended use. There will be loss of tension but this can
easily be fix by tightening or replacing the bungee.
The tension method also allows for greater adjustability in that more
tension can easily be added by adding addition springs or tightening the
spring. In the compression technique you basically need to replace the
spring with a higher loaded spring which may be harder to find in the proper
sizing.

by **Graha** » Tue, 27 Aug 2002 11:18:37

Spring or bungee does'nt matter to me. Aslong as it works, and durable,
thats what counts.

> I think any device that will give the required resistance will work fine.
> The biggest issue with a lot of springs as you say is the mounting, most
of
> which seem to use the compression technique. My experience with these is
> that when the spring starts to fail your pedals don't return to the top.
> and since they don't usually contain a lot of over loading there is little
> room for failure before they drop off less than full return.
> The hopes with the bungee is that the loading will always be enough for
full
> return even after extended use. There will be loss of tension but this
can
> easily be fix by tightening or replacing the bungee.
> The tension method also allows for greater adjustability in that more
> tension can easily be added by adding addition springs or tightening the
> spring. In the compression technique you basically need to replace the
> spring with a higher loaded spring which may be harder to find in the
proper
> sizing.

> > "Schooner" wrote...
> > > <snip>
> > > I would be curious to hear of any past experience with bungee
> > > in a similar use where it has been an issue however, just trying
> > > to gather as much information as possible so that we come up
> > > with the best solution, and not one with known problems, or
> > > overlooking a solution that works but is just not considered
> > > "proper".

> > Springs are good when used in "tension", i.e. stretching the spring, but
> not
> > in "torsion", i.e. using its resistance to being wound tighter. Although
> > there is an adjustability issue with both approaches.

> > In your application/setup I think bungees are the way to go. Put it this
> > way, before I had the MOMO wheel, the pedals of which are adequate
> > (regardless of what anyone says), I used an LWFF wired to TM NasPro
pedals
> > converted to bungee/squash ball. I've improved some of my times set with
> > this combination since, but those are more due to better
> > technique/line/incorporating LFB rather than any innate qualities of
the,
> > spring return, MOMO pedals.

> > Jan.
> > =---

by **Wayne Bradle** » Wed, 28 Aug 2002 02:06:08

IMHO bungies are BAD.

> The brake pedal has a stop now on the case itself to prevent it going too
> far for pot.
> It is currently gameport connection and that is all we are working on
right
> now. There are gameport to USB adapters and we will be testing it on one
as
> well. The fibreglass case for example has not been finished yet is in a
> semi rough state.
> Right now it is still design phase but would like feedback on what people
> think.

> > > For anyone interested we have been making some new pedals first for
> > > our own use but possibly for resale either as plans, kits, or full
> > > units if there is any demand.

> > Good luck to you, they look very strong. Take care to fit a stop on the
> > brake so the pot linkage cant go over center once the squash ball has
> > got a bit weaker. Will these be for game port only or are you planning
> > for usb too?

> > Cheers

> > MikeT (MTPedals as was)

> > --
> > If you want to email me then use this:

> > MikeT at dsl dot pipex dot com

by **Schoone** » Wed, 28 Aug 2002 02:18:32

Just curious as to why?
Have you had issues with them in the past? Not defending them jus trying to
get a clear picture of the issues people have had with them.

> IMHO bungies are BAD.

> > The brake pedal has a stop now on the case itself to prevent it going
too
> > far for pot.
> > It is currently gameport connection and that is all we are working on
> right
> > now. There are gameport to USB adapters and we will be testing it on
one
> as
> > well. The fibreglass case for example has not been finished yet is in a
> > semi rough state.
> > Right now it is still design phase but would like feedback on what
people
> > think.

> > > > For anyone interested we have been making some new pedals first for
> > > > our own use but possibly for resale either as plans, kits, or full
> > > > units if there is any demand.

> > > Good luck to you, they look very strong. Take care to fit a stop on
the
> > > brake so the pot linkage cant go over center once the squash ball has
> > > got a bit weaker. Will these be for game port only or are you planning
> > > for usb too?

> > > Cheers

> > > MikeT (MTPedals as was)

> > > --
> > > If you want to email me then use this:

> > > MikeT at dsl dot pipex dot com

by **rrevve** » Wed, 28 Aug 2002 02:22:15

>Just curious as to why?
>Have you had issues with them in the past? Not defending them jus trying to
>get a clear picture of the issues people have had with them.

Many people have had problems with bungees.
They were used for tension in the earlier Thrustmaster
wheels and weren't very long-lasting.

You have great looking pedals, but I would get rid of the
bungee if I were you .. :)

>> IMHO bungies are BAD.

by **Schoone** » Wed, 28 Aug 2002 02:56:19

The issue with bungee comes down to the quality. We have seen very good and
very poor quality bungee. Good quality will last for years, even in use
under water while poor quality will stretch and give up tension easily. I
think it's the same issue with springs, there are good quality ones and bad
quality and it depends what you get.
We will keep looking into this however and thanks again for the feedback.

> >Just curious as to why?
> >Have you had issues with them in the past? Not defending them jus trying
to
> >get a clear picture of the issues people have had with them.

> Many people have had problems with bungees.
> They were used for tension in the earlier Thrustmaster
> wheels and weren't very long-lasting.

> You have great looking pedals, but I would get rid of the
> bungee if I were you .. :)

> >> IMHO bungies are BAD.

by **Wayne Bradle** » Wed, 28 Aug 2002 03:17:03

Well, In your application it may be just fine. They were used in early
Thrustmaster wheels as the steering wheels centering mechanism and that
proved to be unreliable. In that setup there was only one bungee for each
direction and would stretch quite a bit, thus the breakage. In your
situation they are doubled up and most likely not stretching that far. So
like I said, in your application it may be just fine. I would think about
having some sort of grommet where the bungee loops the hooks to provide a
larger circumference for the bungee to wrap around thus creating less pinch
and more surface area for the bungee to ride on. Almost like a small pulley
around each hook with a channel for the bungee to ride in. Make sense?

> Just curious as to why?
> Have you had issues with them in the past? Not defending them jus trying
to
> get a clear picture of the issues people have had with them.

> > IMHO bungies are BAD.

> > > The brake pedal has a stop now on the case itself to prevent it going
> too
> > > far for pot.
> > > It is currently gameport connection and that is all we are working on
> > right
> > > now. There are gameport to USB adapters and we will be testing it on
> one
> > as
> > > well. The fibreglass case for example has not been finished yet is in
a
> > > semi rough state.
> > > Right now it is still design phase but would like feedback on what
> people
> > > think.

> > > > > For anyone interested we have been making some new pedals first
for
> > > > > our own use but possibly for resale either as plans, kits, or full
> > > > > units if there is any demand.

> > > > Good luck to you, they look very strong. Take care to fit a stop on
> the
> > > > brake so the pot linkage cant go over center once the squash ball
has
> > > > got a bit weaker. Will these be for game port only or are you
planning
> > > > for usb too?

> > > > Cheers

> > > > MikeT (MTPedals as was)

> > > > --
> > > > If you want to email me then use this:

> > > > MikeT at dsl dot pipex dot com

by **Jan Verschuere** » Wed, 28 Aug 2002 03:37:10

Apples and oranges. You can't transpose the problems those bungees suffered
on this application. It only explains why bungees got a bad wrap, not why
they shouldn't be used in these pedals.

The use of bungees in early TM wheels was steering return... that's a whole
different ballgame. Not did the twisting motion stretch them unequally
across the lenght used (i.e. a bit of the bungee was stretched a lot, with
the rest of it hardly taking any strain), they were also subjected to
friction and pre-stretched a lot instead of doubled up in order to obtain
the required resistance. I think the steering bungee in the TM wheels was
used on the very edge of elastic deformation (i.e. stretching that allows
return to previous lenght) and therefore didn't last very long.

In the pedals it's a completely different story as the load acts completely
along the elastic cords that make up the bungee, rather than them being
twisted and they're doubled up instead of pre-stretched (well, just a little
to keep the pedal firmly againstit's front stop) to obtain resistance. These
factors will extend their lifespan considerably. In my experience with my
bungee converted NasPro pedals, the same bungee cord that would last about
two weeks in the wheel lasted over two years on the pedals.

Don't let them talk you out of using bungees Schooner. IMO they're the right
material for the job... just double or triple 'm up if you need more
resistance instead of pre-stretching them hard.

Jan.
=---

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