rec.autos.simulators

Gamespot - The Story of Papyrus Racing Games

JP

Gamespot - The Story of Papyrus Racing Games

by JP » Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:45:19


> On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:51:08 GMT, "Tony Rickard"

> >The
> >concern with modding the 67 cars is that it invalidates the records.

> The silly thing is, if they change the drag as well as the tire model,
> in theory the laptimes should be higher at almost every track.

  That whole argument(records invalidation) is more than silly.
magnulu

Gamespot - The Story of Papyrus Racing Games

by magnulu » Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:50:31


   Even former Papyrus people admit the lack of frills and the high
difficulty contributed to its poor sales.  They wanted to put Formula Ford
and F3 training cars in, maybe Sierra rushed out the game.

magnulu

Gamespot - The Story of Papyrus Racing Games

by magnulu » Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:23:50


  As I understand it, several power steering systems have a heavy feel at
low speeds, then they lighten up as the car increases in speed.  The purpose
is to make it easier to turn at high speeds, making smoother, gradual turns
and movements.

  "Speed sensitive steering" in games is an approximation of this effect.
It helps make the amount of wheel lock you need to turn more predictable.
It also acts to damp the forces at high speed.  In Papyrus games, at high
speed the forces can become quite aggressive, but if you turn down force
feedback, at low speed they become almost nonexistant.

   In real life you can no doubt adjust the power steering on a car for
different speeds or feel (though I'd imagine, most people don't).   If you
want more forces and less speed assistance, you can always turn the setting
down.  I usually leave it at 50-70 percent.  It gives me some feedback about
the forces on the car, but not so much that it becomes difficult to drive.

    People can and do race with joysticks, yet this isn't realistic, either.

magnulu

Gamespot - The Story of Papyrus Racing Games

by magnulu » Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:29:45



   Well, I suspect for Gran Turismo 3, it was difficult to model every
single***pit in the cars- maybe it didn't fit with the look they wanted,
after all Polyhpony's previous GT games didn't have***pits either.
Personally, I would have preffered a generic***pit.  Bumper and hood cam's
don't make or break a game for me, though.

  And many racing games on consoles do have***pit views.

William Bradsha

Gamespot - The Story of Papyrus Racing Games

by William Bradsha » Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:42:23


> If you want a game with a career mode, buy a PS2 and play Gran Turismo
> or something.  The intended market for a Papyrus sim is the same as
> the intended market for a game like IL-2 or Mig Alley or Flight
> Simulator.  People who want a believable experience first and
> foremost, with everything else being a bonus.

Here's a hypothetical question: Would Falcon 3.0/4.0 have been such a
success if it didn't include a dynamic campaign? The dev's could have
said "Here's your simulator, and we're including canned missions. A sim
is a sim; you need no gameplay." (In this analogy: simulator is NASCAR
Racing ****, and canned missions is the championship.)

The reason I bought Falcon 3.0 was due to the physics /and/ campaign,
and I bought Falcon 4.0 over Back to Baghdad because of the dynamic
campaign.

Food for thought? :)

-Will

Jason Moy

Gamespot - The Story of Papyrus Racing Games

by Jason Moy » Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:28:24


>  That whole argument(records invalidation) is more than silly.

Being that I cared about GPL rank for all of about 2 months (if you
combine all my 1-2 week sessions of hotlapping) I'd tend to agree.

It's funny that I do thousands of laps a week in n2003 and I don't
think I've ever bothered finishing any of the ranks or keeping my
laptimes up to date.

Jason

Steve Blankenshi

Gamespot - The Story of Papyrus Racing Games

by Steve Blankenshi » Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:05:35


Nope; in fact, just the opposite - speed sensitive PS systems are mainly a
passenger car item.  They increase boost at low speeds, primarily to make
steering effort easier for parking.  Racing-type systems that I'm aware of
are linear in boost.  The only implementation I can imagine where higher
boost at high speeds might possibly be useful is in F1, where there is
enormous high-speed downforce involved.  Nascar does have downforce, but is
not such an extreme situation.

Nope again; I would suggest the increased downforce and inertial effects are
what you're feeling (and attempting to dial out).  The same happens in the
ISI F1 sims at high speed if you don't use an aid to minimize it - you can
easily feel the steering load up on long straights in F1C.

either.

Your point about joysticks has some relevance here.  As I noted before, the
speed-sensitive steering in games/sims doesn't directly affect the forces at
all.   What it does at say, 50%, is to simply reduce your steering input
gradually as speed increases so that at top speed it's reduced by 50%.  So
20 degrees of lock at your wheel would only be interpreted as a 10 degree
turn at top speed (or whatever speed the game brings in the full effect).
It does make the car feel more settled, for sure and means you don't have to
be as precise in your driving.  As I also noted, it's basically a help
function.  And it's primarily left in to accommodate users with marginal
controllers (like joysticks, or even cheap wheels with a narrow rotational
range) who might otherwise find the game too difficult to control if they
run enough steering lock to get around hairpins.  As far as reality goes, as
of a year or two ago such systems are beginning to make their way into
passenger cars, such as the 7 and 5 series BMW's.  But again, it's mainly to
make parking and low-speed maneuvering easier and is phased out at pretty
low speeds.  Papy uses exactly such a system with their games, from GPL on;
it boosts the lock at low speeds for use in hairpins and pit stalls.  They
only allow you to turn it on or off in a config file, not with a slider in
the game menu.

Whatever settings you like to use is fine of course.  They're YOUR games,
after all.  But you might try to understand better what the effect actually
is before suggesting that a company is derelict in their adherence to
reality by leaving it out.

JP

Gamespot - The Story of Papyrus Racing Games

by JP » Fri, 30 Jul 2004 06:33:36



> >  That whole argument(records invalidation) is more than silly.

> Being that I cared about GPL rank for all of about 2 months (if you
> combine all my 1-2 week sessions of hotlapping) I'd tend to agree.

> It's funny that I do thousands of laps a week in n2003 and I don't
> think I've ever bothered finishing any of the ranks or keeping my
> laptimes up to date.

> Jason

  Yeah, me too.   I'll take an online race instead anyday.
magnulu

Gamespot - The Story of Papyrus Racing Games

by magnulu » Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:39:04


   But I don't necessarily want the forces to dominate the wheel to the
point I don't have good smooth control (and FF wheels aren't the most
precise to begin with).  That's why the speed sensitive steering is useful.
It's not an aid, it's part of the control config, and it certainly is not a
cheat and won't turn a bad driver into a good one.

  It's my understanding that power steering is rarer in F1 cars (I'm not
sure if it will remain legal, I'm not an F1 expert), but all NASCAR racers
in modern times have had them.

Byron Forbe

Gamespot - The Story of Papyrus Racing Games

by Byron Forbe » Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:18:14

    My point is simple - if a sim hasn't got the online right then I'd say
the last thing they should be focusing on 'til they get the online right is
AI/Career modes.

    As far as GPL's lack of sales, I'd say it's because of the era - most
people think it's about old tubs wobbling around the track. I was highly
uninspired when I first heard about GPL - my reaction was "why not a CHAMP
Car or present F1 sim". That all changed when I saw the cars/tracks in
action though. But for the average goose browsing the shelves at the local
games store, GPL would get very fleeting interest, irrspective of game
modes.




> > GPL doesn't have a career mode though.

>    Even former Papyrus people admit the lack of frills and the high
> difficulty contributed to its poor sales.  They wanted to put Formula Ford
> and F3 training cars in, maybe Sierra rushed out the game.

Magnus Svensso

Gamespot - The Story of Papyrus Racing Games

by Magnus Svensso » Sat, 31 Jul 2004 16:49:20

On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:39:04 -0400, "magnulus"


>  It's my understanding that power steering is rarer in F1 cars (I'm not
>sure if it will remain legal, I'm not an F1 expert), but all NASCAR racers
>in modern times have had them.

Power steering in F1 was first used in the early '90s, since 6-7 years
or so all F1 cars have power steering.

There was a suggestion a couple of years back that it would be banned,
which I think a load of... Hell, even a $12000 shopping trolley has
power steering these days.

However I think if you're american the view may be little skewed when
it comes to power steering... ;) The american cars I've driven had an
insane amount of gain in the servo system that made road feedback
through the wheel non-existant. You know, like you could turn the
wheel with your pinky. Quite different in european cars, IME. I would
think a racecar power steering system would be tunable and have rather
small gain to get some surface feel, but I'm just pulling stuff out my
wazoo really, OTOH.

Stephan Pasker

Gamespot - The Story of Papyrus Racing Games

by Stephan Pasker » Sun, 01 Aug 2004 05:47:27


> On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:39:04 -0400, "magnulus"

>>  It's my understanding that power steering is rarer in F1 cars (I'm
>> not sure if it will remain legal, I'm not an F1 expert), but all
>> NASCAR racers in modern times have had them.

> Power steering in F1 was first used in the early '90s, since 6-7 years
> or so all F1 cars have power steering.

Thats true. Power steering is used in F1 for a long time. In this season I
think every car has power steering, but some drivers dont like it, thats
why Jacques Villeneuves BAR sometimes had no power steering.
A few years ago the FIA wanted to ban power steering, but I dont remember
if it became true for one year or so.
However today its allowed, but variable power assist or any other computer
controlled steering aids are forbidden.

[...]

Stephan

Matthew Jessic

Gamespot - The Story of Papyrus Racing Games

by Matthew Jessic » Tue, 03 Aug 2004 13:37:46

The car's yaw damping reduces at higher speeds.

It is possible that a simulated car with steering lags due to the
PC joystick and graphics systems may approach instability
at high speed through this effect, particularly without force
feedback to at least tune the stick force.

Reducing the steering gain at higher speeds helps control this effect.

- Matt



>>>    Papy do simulate that - it's called a non FF wheel!

>>That's not the same.  FF doesn't change the fact there is no speed
>>sensitive steering, it just takes away the feedback.

> FWIW, the speed-sensitive steering settings many driving games have used
> over the years (though never Papy as I recall) have nothing whatsoever to do
> with simulating real world power steering.  All they do is reduce your raw
> inputs by some factor as your speed increases, and in fact were originally
> kludges to simulate the lack of inertial effects in the physics modeling.
> Once proper physics models were introduced, it became a redundant feature,
> though obviously one some people still wanted to see.  It's basically become
> a help-feature along the lines of ABS or TC.  But one would be mistaken to
> call it realistic.  Does reality have a slider?  ;-)

Tim Paulli

Gamespot - The Story of Papyrus Racing Games

by Tim Paulli » Tue, 03 Aug 2004 23:32:09


Agreed,  I didn't buy it until I found this newsgroup full of GPL posts.
Sadly I suck at it but it makes NR2003 seem easier.

Tim

Eldre

Gamespot - The Story of Papyrus Racing Games

by Eldre » Wed, 11 Aug 2004 01:12:34

No *kidding*...<g>

Eldred
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