rec.autos.simulators

Half a decade?  Damn, you know, it HAS been 3 or 4 years since my first run
with Rascar (I forget now).  I will NOT forget the first day.

-Larry

-Larry

EA "swears" they are going to go after and win over the simmers and bring
them into the small fold of gamers that already play the NASCAR Blunder
series. We'll see. If they can't get the damage, physics and online features
implemented close to where Papy left off, it will be a mighty uphill
struggle. Us PC "simmers" could really care less about photorealism and
useless features like a career mode, or how well it ported from the console
to PC. IMHO anyway. True sims are written for PC and ported to consoles to
begin with. We'll see how well EA can do this in reverse...

It is?  I've never found any way to adjust power steering in either of
those titles, and there's nothing in the physics parameters for either
that has anything to do with power steering.  In N2003 (and NT for
that matter) you can emulate it by adjusting linearity and force
effects anyway.

Probably because the stock car modelling is total shit.  It's the same
reason people can praise GTR or F1C cars and dislike the many hastily
put together mods.  I never had the impression ISI knew much about
NASCAR, nor did they really seem to care about the license the way
they did with the F1 titles.

If you want a game with a career mode, buy a PS2 and play Gran Turismo
or something.  The intended market for a Papyrus sim is the same as
the intended market for a game like IL-2 or Mig Alley or Flight
Simulator.  People who want a believable experience first and
foremost, with everything else being a bonus.

Aside from having the best tracks, the best tire model, the best
suspension model, the best aero model, the best uh...er nevermind I
guess that could go on for awhile.

Bingo.  There are those of us who want sims, and not some watered down
game experience that we can already get from a plethora of sources.
Nobody has dedicated themselves to perfecting the experience of
simulated driving like Dave Kaemmer, and unlike most of his
competitors and people who criticize him, he has real life experience
behind the wheel of a variety of real race cars.  I think the fanbase
of N2003 (which includes almost every active Nextel, Busch, and CTS
driver) speaks for itself.  

Jason

    I see this as a 1/10ths full VS 9/10ths empty arguement with you.  as I
see it, you see the 2 or 3 things that just might be more realistic about a
game that is 9/10ths arcade BS, but then also like to nitpic the 3 things
that are "arcady" about a 9/10ths decent simulator... .

    It is wierd to watch you proclaim exactly the opposite of what has been
more or less proven over time, with sales, remarks from Real life drivers,
and even what is in use to this day (Papy's NR'series)...   All of which,
the success-nor-realism cannot yet and has not been duplicated yet
respectively...  add to that there have been several interviews or exposays
about real Nascar Drivers, talking about sims they drive over the last
year...

    It speaks volumes to me, that of the 2 handfull's of tittles out there
since NR(1), Papyrus is picked by real NASCAR drivers over just about
anything out there, online or offline.  Lets face it, Dale Jr has the money
& inclination to get whatever is available (and has enough money to get what
isnt yet available if he really wanted to) and they run NR2003...  so what
gives?

BTW, I have a playstation that dont mean I simulate real innercity life,
playing GrandTheftAuto on it either, mostly because back when I held up
liquor stores and killed ***s or stole cars, I didnt have some funky
ass key combination to press on a joypad, It just aint realstic...  :P

cheers,

uwe

--
mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox)
Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/
Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E)
GPG Fingerprint:  2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F  67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

It was pretty dedicated stuff for the Brits as it ran at 03:00, but at the
time there were no cable or ADSL connections in the UK.

I still race and enjoy online pick up and offline races, but for me by far
the best *** experience is online league sim racing. As Uwe says not just
for the on track racing but also the friendship.

Cheers
Tony

The article still had some of those comments that always made me
roll my eyes.

"Nevertheless, Grand Prix Legends was--and quite likely still is--the
ultimate in extreme realism."

After not running this sim since '98, I decided to re-install the other
night and use the
new demo to make a quick update (looks much better).

After an hour and a half of practice with the AI on track at WG (in the
Ferrari), I was able to
get pole, and finished in second one second behind the leader (they had a
much
better start).

Tried the Lotus last night with the default qual setup, and got pole again,
and
finished first, 5 seconds ahead in a 9 lap race after trailing for the first
4 laps (perfect start by one driver again).

Since it's been years since I ran GPL, and I didn't run it much even then
after finishing VROC beta, I would say that this game was absolutely new to
me once again. I approached it the same way I approach any driving sim or
arcade
racer. I
think people (especially older simmers) wanted to badly believe the above
quote (so thy can seperate themselves from arcaders), and then thought WAY
too much about how to drive this sim. Like all
of them, you just steer, brake, shift. Did the same thing in POD. :-o

No *ultimate* realism that I noticed. Had fun though.

Once again, just like six years ago, it was *immediately* apparent that the
tires had too little grip. Never understood how that could of been so
vehemently denied by so many here. Finally admitted the truth to themselves
after about four years (and Kaemmer saying it himself). I did enjoy myself,
but this never ending "Papyrus
makes the most ultra-realistic sims" stuff is just nonsense. F1C is easily a
more realistic experience IMO.

You can drive GPL like any other sim, and the results will be the same.
Bottom line, it's just
a game like all the rest. :-)

David G Fisher

DGF and GPL - just like the old days! - a sleeping giant awakes...

You will find some AI tweaks for the experienced sim racer. You don't say
what difficulty level you are on. Plus GPL speeds up to your pace after a
few races...

Running cars with limited grip, no traction control and no wings is fun. It
probably explains why some prefer it to modern day F1, even those who had no
interest in historic racing (like me before GPL). Also as we have debated
before some prefer the Papy style of physics modelling in that it feels more
natural to them, but I would be the first to agree there are no right
answers, it comes down to preference.

After running the 1965 mod which has revised grip levels I would agree. If
you get time give it a go, it is a worthy experience and updates what you
correctly describe as a flaw in the original model.

It does work extremely well on-line though and probably still gives the
greatest experience of on-line racing on road courses available even now
with the 65 mod.

Troll !!!!

<snip a pile of shit I've responded to before>

F1C fails in the two areas I care the most about in a sim.  Tracks,
and tire model.  Now, to be fair, GPL fails in both of these areas to
about the same extent (slightly better tracks, slightly worse tire
model) but in the end, N2003 is the only sim I know of with a
realistic depiction of tire deformation with speed.  It's lacking a
good brake model, which imho is its biggest weak point besides some
niggles with aero, but overall it's a damn good simulation and it is
being used by real drivers to train for real events, which is
ultimately what most simulators are designed for.  

That said, until GTR and RBR come out F1C is an easy 2nd or 3rd for me
depending on whether I'm more pissed off at it or GPL.  There are some
things I prefer about GP4 but the driving experience, while generally
underrated, just isn't as good.

You can drive GPL unlike the way the cars would really be driven, and
ultimately be incredibly fast.  It's a good sim, but I don't think
it's stood the test of time as well as most do.  If more historic sims
would be released with the same simulation-based mindset I doubt
people would be going gaga over it still.  It sucks that we have
dozens of simulators covering every aspect of the WWII airwar, but
exactly one that covers pre-modern racing.

Jason

  You can have both a simulation and a game, they are not mutually
exclusive.   How is a career mode not a simulation of something that happens
in real life?

  I like career modes.  Dirt Track Racing and Leadfoot have some great
career modes, and its good NASCAR Thunder for the PC finally got one too.
You start thinking strategicly when every crash or bump you make costs you
money and can hurt you in the long run.

  You totally ignored the bit where I said Papyrus got the physics wrong.
Real stock cars have power steering, but the cars in Papyrus games do not.
It might not make a difference to you, but stop pretending that Papyrus has
the market cornered on physical simulations.

  Not a useless feature, if like me you race mostly off-line.

  Have you even played NASCAR Thunder 2004?   Or F1-C?  Or NASCAR HEAT?
"Papy" had plenty of competition, it's just some people didn't want to take
the blinders off.

  Stop being so arrogant, OK?

  NASCAR HEAT and NASCAR Thunder on the PS2 both qualify as a simulation.
You can make the physics just as demanding as the PC versions.  Also, Dirt
to Daytona is definitely in the "simulation" category, though you do have to
unlock the hardest physical modelling level.   The Formula 1 series by EA
games is also on the console.

  And Gran Turismo definitely is a simulation in many ways.  Sure, there is
no damage modelling but it gets many other things right.

  Adjust the speed sensitivity of the control.  Speed sensitivity is a part
of most power steering mechanisms.   Even Sports Car GT from ISI had speed
sensitivity.

  Linearity is not the same as speed sensitivity.

  ISI isn't working on NASCAR Thunder, I believe it is Tiburon or some other
EA developement team.

  I think we need a new newsgroup.  Comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.racing.  For
discussiong would be any racing game, no matter wheather it was sim or
arcade, or anywhere in between.  Papyrus fans would be welcome but the focus
of the group would be racing games in general.

Grand Prix Legends, for example, has been a fixture on my series of computer
systems since The Day and yet I have only once raced online with it.
Even now I am bashing it to death once again as I enjoy the 1965 mod.

Geoff Crammond's "Grand Prix" series - up to and including GP3 - was also a
fixture yet the only leagues I ever took part in were off-line.

So please don't generalise.

Bruce.

    This is simple - any "sim" released post GPL that doesn't do multiplay
properly like Papy sims is worth nothing. About the only thing I use AI for
these days is to check where cars slow down to pit speed limits - end of
story. It's the same old story - there's those that wanna jump on in and kid
themselves they're Jack Brabham (quick fix) and then there's those that want
a "sim". Racing against human controlled cars is infinantly more realistic
than AI - in fact that aspect is not even sim - it IS reality. With what
Papy offer with GPL and Nascar 2003 + mods, there will be no need to look at
anything that fails to equal these titles so far as multiplay is concerned -
not in my book anyway. I hope GTR is done right.