rec.autos.simulators

Few comments:

A few poster, like I, don't mind the fact that there is no rain modeled.  I
totally agree with Patrick who posted the following, "Also considering the
extreme realism of the GPL physics engine it would be tough to recreate the
effect and unpredictability of rain to the same tough standard."  One poorly
modeled part of any game can break the whole thing.  If you can't do it
correctly, then why do it.  I have played too many games where they have
flashy graphics and menus, but the game play stinks. One last thing.
Something, that I picked up in my school days.  Most children have the
desire and ability to draw/paint.  Most children lose their ability and
desire because they can not meet their own standards of realism Those who
continue, realize that they will never beable to recreate a picture/image
absolutely perfectly. That said.  If you try to rely upon your own ability
to create realism then you just going to be disappointed.  If your looking
for total realism in a game, then your just going to be disappointed  I
could go on, but I won't.

Still waiting for the perfect virtual reality racing sim.  (with rain too!)
and I am glad that there are company's out there that are trying to strive
for perfection.

Just stating my opinion.  Not trying to step on toes.

  Forza Rubinho - easily my favourite driver of the current F1 mob.

  To get back on the topic of "rain" and GPL, I wonder how difficult a
modification it would be?  As a physicist, I would have thought that
it would simply be a matter of saying that the coefficient of friction
is reduced between tyre and track.  You might want to advance this
slightly to model the effect of some areas being damper than others.
Also there's a slight reduction in engine power in modern F1 - odn't
know about '67.  I'd have thought the effect of rain would be less
in '67 anyway due to the treaded tyres.

--
Richard G. Clegg     Only the mind is waving
Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York.

www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

--Dave

Yes, a "simple" way to do it would be a change in friction. However, I
think the GPL crew wanted it to be done even better than that. I read
somewhere (?) that they wanted the effect of "wet on one half, dry on
the other" like at Spa. They also wanted random puddles, I think... I
swear I read this somewhere, so if anyone else recalls this, let me
know. So these things add to the equasion...

As for the rain effect being less then... I can't say for sure, but I
think it would be almost the same as today. Why? Because even though the
treads were present, I don't know if their pattern is anywhere near as
efficient as today. From pictures, they seemed to be circumferential
(sp?) bands, not unlike today's F1 tires with some "squiggles" in them.

But the key reason, IMHO, is that they used the same compound tire as
they did in the dry. I mean, these tires were so hard that they'd last a
few RACES in the dry. A compound this hard would certainly be
detrimental in the wet... again pointing to modern racing rain tires as
a comparison. Those things are gooey. They don't last worth a darn in
the dry because they overheat so fast.

I'm interested in your theories... me being a simple computer network
geek, and you being a physicist and all... :-)

--Dave

So every US oval driver is a....... what?

--
Cheers!
Graeme Nash

http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk
ICQ# 11257824

1998 Xoom GP2 League Champion

Your becoming a troll Greg ?

-= Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank>
-= NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/
-= SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/
-= Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
-= May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Greg Cisko wrote

Greg I don't know if you had the knowledge about the Ubisoft game engine but
here it goes...

The Z-axis effects are canned in Ubisoft.  They are modeled as a dependant
identity from the overall track layout.  When you "load" the track, it will
load a set of parameters (XYZ position) of some bumps on the track.

What it means is that the game engine can't support anything else than X and
Y simple elevations.  It can't support banking.  It can't support camber.
You don't see the bumps on the track.  They are invisible.

When you pass on the XY position of the bump (like per example at Argentina
on the backstretch), it will remember that and create the canned Z position
(so if Z= 5, that means the***pit will elevate as 5).  There's  no real
mathematical calculation like per example if you go out of the road at
Zandvoort or per example the turn after *** at
Monaco.

-= Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank>
-= NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.racesimcentral.net/
-= SimRacing Online http://www.racesimcentral.net/
-= Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
-= May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

My understanding is that the folks doing GPL were unwilling to include
things which were not up to the realism standards set by the driving model.
I remember quite clearly that someone involved in the project said in an
interview that they could have put some cloudy graphics and fog on the
screen and universally decreased the numbers used for coefficient of
friction between tires and the road and called that "rain". But everyone
knows that that does not come close to accurately portraying a real wet
track, with areas of standing water, a partially drying line, etc......
never mind the actual physics of water interacting with those grooved tires
they used back then.
This would have been a complication adding (i asume) lots of time in terms
of development and CPU overhead.

weather effects using Glide. Maybe this is why Sierra is taking the
big ***:-)>>

Glide, as a graphics card driver protocol, does not "do weather effects". it
is involved in making the clouds and fog seen on the screen. this is not a
very realistic weather effect, at least not in terms of the standards set by
GPL. F1RS does something, but it isn't rain...

this is consistent with their stance on FF, "if it can't be done right,
don't do it at all...." (they may want to rethink that last one, though ;) )

shit without weather effects.>>

you are, of course, entitled to your opinion. but "total shit" may be a
little strong. the title's developers decided it wasn't essential because it
wouldn't be good enough. some other people apparently agree with them.

BTW, why is weather so important to you? just curious.... seems that it
wouldn't be enough to really make or break a sim for most folks....

OK, so who wouldn't agree that it would have been nice to have weather? but
it isn't necessary- at least not to everyone. what the game does simulate,
it does very well.
well, on the other hand, the "realistic" damage model....... well......

Yes I also thought about the rain effect in GPL.

I think that there's 2 main thing that would need to be modeled in the game
engine.  There's the physical rain engine, and the graphical game engine.

For me the physical engine would mean the correct coefficient of friction on
each parameter (track, concrete, grass, etc..).   Since Im sure they
wouldn't want to model the full track equally but portions of it, it would
need to model wind, windspeed, atmospherical pression, rain intensity (rain
per square meters in the air AND on the track).  For me it would need a
great model of the drying track effects.  Calculate how the track, grass,
etc..   asborb the water, dependant on also how much "rain per square meter"
there is on that XYZ portion of the track.

It would also need to be dependant of the track architecture.   Water on the
track would need to flow naturally with the XYZ data of the track model.

I don't think they would model canned physics here (random XYZ stuff). I
think it would be done in a dynamic way that would make it realistic, not
"fake" and canned as with per example the Ubisoft F1 titles.

And after you also need graphical effects.  Those are a little more easy and
dependant still of the physical effects.  You need to calculate the water
dropping correctly from the tyres, graphical effects of the rain, clouds,
puddles, etc..

It's far more complicated to create correctly than to make it canned and
fake as some "other" company.  And Im sorry Greg, Im not pro-Papyrus at all.
Heck if your enough simple-minded to think like that, I lost all respect I
had from you.

-= Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank>
-= NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/
-= SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/
-= Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
-= May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Oh please... you're not trying to tell him that those bumps should be
actually *visible* are you? It's irrelevant wether this is a canned
function or some sophisticated mathematical function as long as it *is
there* and works as expected (on all accounts). And it is a fact,
there is no such thing in GPL.

--Tel

I will explain.  Someone that is a savvy track editor, could lower the tire
traction on a given track (thus giving you rain like driving conditions),
The you as the drivers would have to come up with a setup like the
following.

1) Helmet (with goggles, you know, Like the type they used in 67)
2) 1- variable speed fan
3) 1 - variable pressure water supply
4) Fog Machine (Optional)

Here's how it works.  Set the fan in front of the your monitor (in such a
place as to not block your view, but will  still blow in your face.)  Some
how connect the variable speed fan up to the pot. on your brakes and gas
pedals So, as you speed up the fan speeds up, as you brake the fan slows
down.  I think you get the point.  Take you pressurized water supply and
direct it into the back of the fan.  This should spray water on your face at
variable speeds, thus giving you the sensation of rain as you drive.  You
should have a method of adjusting how much water in sprayed into the fan
(wouldn't want to much, wouldn't want in to be "raining" cats-and-dogs).
Got your Helmet on? How about the goggles?  Now that your goggles are fogged
up, go run a few laps at the Ring.  At the same time, make sure you keep
your goggles clear so you can see where you are going.  For added realism,
add a little fog to the setup.

Still working on the standing water puddles on the track, if I come up with
an answer, I will let you guys know.

Hey, Life begins at 180mph! (and ends when it starts to rain!)

[Humor OFF]

Do not hold me responsible for shorted keyboards and wheels/pedals combos,
or any other electrical equipment they you might have damaged.

Greame, why don't you ask em.  they always seemed to laugh when I would
talk about racing in the rain and then they got real angry when I made
comment about real men.  

Dave