rec.autos.simulators

by **Mark Seer** » Sun, 11 Jul 1999 04:00:00

Yugo in these waters Bruce :-)

Mark

> I think the spelling is "Ugo" and the car has a 500cc engine,
> Randy....something like the 1960s Fiat 500.

> > > There isn't a FF wheel made today that I would trade my ECCI for. In
> > fact
> > > the only way that I'll ever be separated from my ECCI is to upgrade
> > to a
> > > newer ECCI:) I bet the TSW owners feel the same way.

> > > You'll always be happy with your Yugo until you try a Ferrari. When
> > you do
> > > you'll realize what you've been missing:)

> > Hmmm. Just to play the devil's advocate (since the devil is apparently
> > too cold to do it himself), which would give you a better driving
> > experience; a fully operational Yugo (whatever that may be :-), or a
> > Ferrari that has no engine?

> > Randy

by **Tim (fusio** » Sun, 11 Jul 1999 04:00:00

>I think the spelling is "Ugo" and the car has a 500cc engine,
>Randy....something like the 1960s Fiat 500.

Not in the US. It was Yugo. They had lots of Fiat parts, and I think
the engine was something like 1.2 liters.

Probably the worst car ever sold in the states, spawning all kinds of
goofy jokes...

How do you double the value of a Yugo?
Fill the gas tank

How do make a Yugo go 0-60 in 5 seconds?
Drive it off a cliff

Why do Yugo's come with heated bumpers?
To keep your hands warm while you're pushing it.

My dad's car-stupid neighbor bought one. This was when they were new,
I guess around 86. I can remember hearing him try to start it on cold
mornings. He'd just let it crank forever.
I don't know if it was something he was doing or what, but it would
always take about 5 minutes of cranking to start.
Eventually, he started to thrash the shit out of the thing since he
hated it so much.
One rainy morning, he was giving it the usual thrashing, and lost
control of it on a jughandle, and went off into a drainage basin.

He came home with the car covered with mud and weeds, and a visible
outward dent in the roof -made by his head when he flew out of the
seat.
When he told me about it, he said he was in a lot of pain, but when he
pointed to the dent we both started laughing hysterically.
It was like something out of a cartoon.
It sat there a few days, covered with mud and weeds until the wrecker
that left it came back to take it to it's final resting place.

The guy has since moved out of my dads neighborhood, but I bet he had
a big grin on his face when the Yugo factory was bombed into a pile of
rubble a couple months ago.

--

http://www.users.fast.net/~fusion1
(dirt bikes, rat bikes, rental car abuse...)

by **Demon new** » Sun, 11 Jul 1999 04:00:00

With all due respect John! this Force Feedback will literally blow you away,
if you drift back to a non FF wheel, i would be greatly suprised.
Randy Cassidy and the team have set new standards, that had me trying every
corner on every circuit till 4am this morning........
I kept giggling out loud, which was a bit disconcerting for my wife, as I
was wearing headphones and she was trying to sleep in the next room

Please please, don't get involved in any arguments about "Who's wheel is
better" or "Force feedback is just a feature" debates,
Go immediatly and take that wheel back from your friend, even though you may
have to fight him if he has a patched version of GPL <g> but wrestle it
from his sweaty palms and then rush home, plug it in, and...........well let
me know.....

Regards Davey_Willo

> Ah, at last something that ECCI and TSW owners can agree on! <G>

> I have access to a Saitek R4 Force wheel, but I find myself seldom
> using it -- my TSW/TSW2 wheels are far more precise, and I can turn in
> consistently better lap times (and better race times, too). The FF
> effects are neat, and in Viper Racing, they do add an immersive
> quality, but there are too many other sensations missing for FF to be
> anything more than a neat gimmick, as far as I'm concerned. Adding in
> the Aura Interactor helps fill in some of the blanks left by a FF
> wheel, but even with that added in, I'm still not ready to trade in my
> TSW. All in all, I really enjoy sims more with my TSW wheels than I
> do with a FF wheel.

> I don't have access to the Saitek wheel today (it's out on loan to a
> friend -- lucky guy!), so the jury is out on GPL and FF for me, but I
> imagine I'll think it's neat up to a point, and slowly drift back to
> using the TSW2 full-time (my TSW2 has a nicer wheel than my TSW <G>).

> -- JB

> On Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:06:51 -0500, "Scottie Smith"

> >There isn't a FF wheel made today that I would trade my ECCI for. In fact
> >the only way that I'll ever be separated from my ECCI is to upgrade to a
> >newer ECCI:) I bet the TSW owners feel the same way.

> >You'll always be happy with your Yugo until you try a Ferrari. When you
do
> >you'll realize what you've been missing:)

> >Scottie

> >>> I think the ff is fantastic!

> >>> Andre

> >>Except on those $1000 ECCI wheels. Or even $300 TSW/TSW2 wheels. ;)

by **John Bod** » Sun, 11 Jul 1999 04:00:00

On 9 Jul 1999 21:17:26 GMT, "DAVID "

>Randy, I think he has ya there, but paying the devils advocate would she
>believe you if you told her the Ferrari is in the shop.

The "Ferrari in the shop" line might cause disbelieve, but there's
always the chance -- albeit slim -- that she might believe it. The
Yugo, on the other hand, will get you sent packing promptly.

So, what's all this got to do with GPL and FF, anyway? <G>

;-)

-- JB

by **John Bod** » Sun, 11 Jul 1999 04:00:00

Sorry Bruce -- it IS spelled "Yugo"; it was a small econo car
manufactured in Yugoslavia in the mid-to-late '80s and sold in the US.
Horrid car. I believe you are thinking of the Fiat Uno, perhaps (I
could be wrong on the Uno, being an American and not all that
well-versed in cars not sold on these shores).

-- JB

On Sat, 10 Jul 1999 19:29:58 +1000, "Bruce Kennewell"

>I think the spelling is "Ugo" and the car has a 500cc engine,
>Randy....something like the 1960s Fiat 500.

>> > There isn't a FF wheel made today that I would trade my ECCI for. In
>> fact
>> > the only way that I'll ever be separated from my ECCI is to upgrade
>> to a
>> > newer ECCI:) I bet the TSW owners feel the same way.

>> > You'll always be happy with your Yugo until you try a Ferrari. When
>> you do
>> > you'll realize what you've been missing:)

>> Hmmm. Just to play the devil's advocate (since the devil is apparently
>> too cold to do it himself), which would give you a better driving
>> experience; a fully operational Yugo (whatever that may be :-), or a
>> Ferrari that has no engine?

>> Randy

by **DAVI** » Sun, 11 Jul 1999 04:00:00

The Yogo is an old Fiat design. It was a okay car when it was Fiat,
though not very relieable. Combine the old design and now workers who
built who could care less and you have a really bad car. It had a 1200cc
engine.

And yes you can double the value of a 86 yugo buy filling the tank and this
was even back in 1990.

Dave

> >I think the spelling is "Ugo" and the car has a 500cc engine,
> >Randy....something like the 1960s Fiat 500.

> Not in the US. It was Yugo. They had lots of Fiat parts, and I think
> the engine was something like 1.2 liters.

> Probably the worst car ever sold in the states, spawning all kinds of
> goofy jokes...

> How do you double the value of a Yugo?
> Fill the gas tank

> How do make a Yugo go 0-60 in 5 seconds?
> Drive it off a cliff

> Why do Yugo's come with heated bumpers?
> To keep your hands warm while you're pushing it.

> My dad's car-stupid neighbor bought one. This was when they were new,
> I guess around 86. I can remember hearing him try to start it on cold
> mornings. He'd just let it crank forever.
> I don't know if it was something he was doing or what, but it would
> always take about 5 minutes of cranking to start.
> Eventually, he started to thrash the shit out of the thing since he
> hated it so much.
> One rainy morning, he was giving it the usual thrashing, and lost
> control of it on a jughandle, and went off into a drainage basin.

> He came home with the car covered with mud and weeds, and a visible
> outward dent in the roof -made by his head when he flew out of the
> seat.
> When he told me about it, he said he was in a lot of pain, but when he
> pointed to the dent we both started laughing hysterically.
> It was like something out of a cartoon.
> It sat there a few days, covered with mud and weeds until the wrecker
> that left it came back to take it to it's final resting place.

> The guy has since moved out of my dads neighborhood, but I bet he had
> a big grin on his face when the Yugo factory was bombed into a pile of
> rubble a couple months ago.

> --

> http://www.users.fast.net/~fusion1
> (dirt bikes, rat bikes, rental car abuse...)

by **Mike Mellendor** » Sun, 11 Jul 1999 04:00:00

Do to the popularity of the force feedback in GPL I will purchase a force
feedback wheel. I'll probably get a Logitech and use with my old set of CH
pedals. By the way I will use my TSW Formula for all serious sim racing and
the Logitech for the entertainment value of FF. Not to mention it will be
alot easier to watch friends and family yank around on the Logitech. If the
FF is even close to what everyone has been talking about I might not have to
take the wheel back.

by **John Bod** » Sun, 11 Jul 1999 04:00:00

I think that the ideal solution is to own both a non-FF wheel and a FF
wheel, if possible. My experience with the Saitek FF wheel is that
while it works okay in non-FF games (ICR2 and such), I still like a
good non-FF wheel for use with a good non-FF sim. I also imagine that
FF will create a HUGE frame rate hit for on-line racing, so it might
be desirable to have a good non-FF wheel for use in these situations.

Additionally, I found that while FF effects did help me turn in better
times in Viper Racing initially, I was ultimately able to better these
times with my non-FF TSW2 wheel. I think others have probably
encountered this same situation, too -- I'm sure I'm not alone in
this, at any rate. Given that, when the chips are on the line and the
competition is for real, the real competitors might not want to be
burdened with the distractioin of the FF effects, so a non-FF wheel
would be ideal at those times. Granted, GPL's FF implementation may
prove to be more of an enhancement than a distraction, but in the end,
despite how good the FF is in Viper Racing, I found it to slightly
more of a distraction than an enhancement to me. This is obviously a
personal preference thing, but I also imagine that while there will be
people who like FF much more than I do, there will also be those who
like it much less, too.

It's like this with everything: Some of my friends love NFS3, for
example, but I personally don't care all that much for it. Nobody's
wrong in either case -- it's just a matter of personal opinion. FF is
the same way -- you either love it, you hate it, or you don't care
much one way or the other.

The ultimate solution with regards to the non-FF versus FF issue is
obviously to have one of each -- a FF wheel, and a non-FF wheel. This
becomes a VERY expensive proposition for the ECCI owners in the group.
This is also somewhat cost-prohibitive for the TSW owners, but it's
not quite as much of a financial stretch. For example, I still
couldn't afford an ECCI for what I have invested in my TSW2 and my
Saitek R4 Force wheel, so in the mid-range price category, it is
possible to have the best of both worlds.

For people using lower-cost non-FF wheels from Thrustmaster, ACT Labs,
or other companies, it is possible to find an affordable FF rig to use
as a secondary controller. The ACT Labs and Logitech wheels can be
had for quite a bit less than $150 (not much more than I paid for my
Thrustmaster NASCAR Pro way back when), and refurbished Saitek R4
Force wheels can be had for $79 from Saitek, while my local Best Buy
has the Interact V4 Force wheel on sale for $49 (I have heard mixed
reviews on this, but most indicate that while this wheel may not be a
top-of-the-line FF wheel, it's still nowhere near as bad as the
original Interact V4). FF is definitely becoming more affordable.

So what we have now is plenty of options and plenty of choices across
the entire spectrum. People are going to have their preferences, and
people are going to try to defend their choices. Preferences are
based on opinions, and opinions are like belly-buttons: Everybody has
one.

This issue will surely be debated into the ground, I'm sure (we're
already several feet deep), but I hope we all take time out to realize
how fortunate we are at this point. We've got a lot of great sims on
the market, a cornucopia of outstanding controllers to choose from,
and the prices keep dropping across the board. So what are we
complaining about? Doesn't anybody remember when all we had was the
original GP and ICR1 sims, and the Thrustmaster T1 wheel had to be
mail-ordered.

We've come a long way, baby.

Ain't it grand?

;-)

-- JB

>With all due respect John! this Force Feedback will literally blow you away,
>if you drift back to a non FF wheel, i would be greatly suprised.
>Randy Cassidy and the team have set new standards, that had me trying every
>corner on every circuit till 4am this morning........
>I kept giggling out loud, which was a bit disconcerting for my wife, as I
>was wearing headphones and she was trying to sleep in the next room

>Please please, don't get involved in any arguments about "Who's wheel is
>better" or "Force feedback is just a feature" debates,
>Go immediatly and take that wheel back from your friend, even though you may
>have to fight him if he has a patched version of GPL <g> but wrestle it
>from his sweaty palms and then rush home, plug it in, and...........well let
>me know.....

>Regards Davey_Willo

>> Ah, at last something that ECCI and TSW owners can agree on! <G>

>> I have access to a Saitek R4 Force wheel, but I find myself seldom
>> using it -- my TSW/TSW2 wheels are far more precise, and I can turn in
>> consistently better lap times (and better race times, too). The FF
>> effects are neat, and in Viper Racing, they do add an immersive
>> quality, but there are too many other sensations missing for FF to be
>> anything more than a neat gimmick, as far as I'm concerned. Adding in
>> the Aura Interactor helps fill in some of the blanks left by a FF
>> wheel, but even with that added in, I'm still not ready to trade in my
>> TSW. All in all, I really enjoy sims more with my TSW wheels than I
>> do with a FF wheel.

>> I don't have access to the Saitek wheel today (it's out on loan to a
>> friend -- lucky guy!), so the jury is out on GPL and FF for me, but I
>> imagine I'll think it's neat up to a point, and slowly drift back to
>> using the TSW2 full-time (my TSW2 has a nicer wheel than my TSW <G>).

>> -- JB

>> On Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:06:51 -0500, "Scottie Smith"

>> >There isn't a FF wheel made today that I would trade my ECCI for. In fact
>> >the only way that I'll ever be separated from my ECCI is to upgrade to a
>> >newer ECCI:) I bet the TSW owners feel the same way.

>> >You'll always be happy with your Yugo until you try a Ferrari. When you
>do
>> >you'll realize what you've been missing:)

>> >Scottie

>> >>> I think the ff is fantastic!

>> >>> Andre

>> >>Except on those $1000 ECCI wheels. Or even $300 TSW/TSW2 wheels. ;)

by **John Bod** » Sun, 11 Jul 1999 04:00:00

On Sun, 11 Jul 1999 00:57:58 +1000, "Bruce Kennewell"

>HAHAHHA!!!
>Lovely story, Tim!!
>I'm not sure if the cars were sold here.....we have a little device called a
>"Niki" (Polish, I think) which is a 90s verson of the Fiat 500 and I may
>have been getting confused with that.

>Your "Yugo" monstrosity sounds a like the US (Or Yugoslav) equivalent of the
>East German "Trabant"!!

I don't think the Yugo was quite as bad as the Trabbi, but you've got
the general idea! <G>

-- JB

>> >I think the spelling is "Ugo" and the car has a 500cc engine,
>> >Randy....something like the 1960s Fiat 500.

>> Not in the US. It was Yugo. They had lots of Fiat parts, and I think
>> the engine was something like 1.2 liters.

>> Probably the worst car ever sold in the states, spawning all kinds of
>> goofy jokes...

>> How do you double the value of a Yugo?
>> Fill the gas tank

>> How do make a Yugo go 0-60 in 5 seconds?
>> Drive it off a cliff

>> Why do Yugo's come with heated bumpers?
>> To keep your hands warm while you're pushing it.

>> My dad's car-stupid neighbor bought one. This was when they were new,
>> I guess around 86. I can remember hearing him try to start it on cold
>> mornings. He'd just let it crank forever.
>> I don't know if it was something he was doing or what, but it would
>> always take about 5 minutes of cranking to start.
>> Eventually, he started to thrash the shit out of the thing since he
>> hated it so much.
>> One rainy morning, he was giving it the usual thrashing, and lost
>> control of it on a jughandle, and went off into a drainage basin.

>> He came home with the car covered with mud and weeds, and a visible
>> outward dent in the roof -made by his head when he flew out of the
>> seat.
>> When he told me about it, he said he was in a lot of pain, but when he
>> pointed to the dent we both started laughing hysterically.
>> It was like something out of a cartoon.
>> It sat there a few days, covered with mud and weeds until the wrecker
>> that left it came back to take it to it's final resting place.

>> The guy has since moved out of my dads neighborhood, but I bet he had
>> a big grin on his face when the Yugo factory was bombed into a pile of
>> rubble a couple months ago.

>> --

>> http://www.users.fast.net/~fusion1
>> (dirt bikes, rat bikes, rental car abuse...)

by **Jeffrey Ha** » Sun, 11 Jul 1999 04:00:00

Tim,

The Wall Street Journal had an article a couple of months ago about an
older guy who drag races a Yugo. I don't remember the times he was
turning but I thought it was around 14 seconds which would be
amazingly fast for that car. He was a basic back yard mechanic. The
article ran in the middle column of the paper which if you follow the
Journal always has a somewhat humorous tone.

Jeff

by **DAVI** » Sun, 11 Jul 1999 04:00:00

I know who this guy is he races out of Englishtown dragway. He even has a
web site if you do a search of Yogodave, I think you will find it. He uses
a bunch a Fiat parts to get the going quick and also he has realy put the
car an a real diet. It run mid 14s and is still Fwd and to my knowledge
has a 1200cc motor in it.

I raced against one in a Solo ll tho he was basically a one run wonder, the
car broke on its first run and never saw it again.

Dave

> >Probably the worst car ever sold in the states, spawning all kinds of
> >goofy jokes...

> >How do you double the value of a Yugo?
> >Fill the gas tank

> >How do make a Yugo go 0-60 in 5 seconds?
> >Drive it off a cliff

> Tim,

> The Wall Street Journal had an article a couple of months ago about an
> older guy who drag races a Yugo. I don't remember the times he was
> turning but I thought it was around 14 seconds which would be
> amazingly fast for that car. He was a basic back yard mechanic. The
> article ran in the middle column of the paper which if you follow the
> Journal always has a somewhat humorous tone.

> Jeff

by Jo » Sun, 11 Jul 1999 04:00:00

>would be ideal at those times. Granted, GPL's FF implementation may
>prove to be more of an enhancement than a distraction, but in the end,
>despite how good the FF is in Viper Racing, I found it to slightly
>more of a distraction than an enhancement to me.

GPL's FF is vastly superior to Vipers (which is not to slam Viper, it
was previously the best). The thing about GPL is it's 3D car physics,
which is what makes it so difficult to drive (and so realistic). I
think that's why GPL got some bad reviews. You drive up a hill, slow
down to turn, and the car does one thing. Drive down a hill o a
similar turn and the car acts completely differently.

Some people are able to interpret the GPL***pit graphics shifts as
weight shifts, and thus they can get a feel for driving the car. For
many other people the graphics are too subtle, so they never really
understand why the car acts as it does in various circumstances.

What GPL FF does is level the playing field. It provides a much more
direct, visceral feeling of what the weight of the car is doing at any
point. For all the people who didn't "get" the subtle***pit graphics
the game is really drivable for the first time. Furthermore, it
increases the immersiveness of the sim, that feeling that you are
really driving a car. For these reasons I think you'll find that the
vast majority of people will leave FF turned on at all times, whether
racing alone or onlime.

I don't think it's quite like that. NFS3 and GPL are apples and
oranges. GPL FF effects are a sim enhancement that makes the weakest
area of the program (the lack of "seat of pants feel") it's greatest
strength.

Joe McGinn
==========================================
Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network
http://www.racesimcentral.net/***.com/
==========================================

by **Pat Dotso** » Sun, 11 Jul 1999 04:00:00

John has had plenty of experience with GPL force
feedback. While I don't agree with him, and will
never go back to a spring loaded wheel, I'm sure
lots of others will make that choice.

--
Pat Dotson

> With all due respect John! this Force Feedback will literally blow you away,

by **Ralf & Gwendoly** » Sun, 11 Jul 1999 04:00:00

Yugos initially were Fiats that were produced under licence in Yugoslavia,
hence the name Yugo (and the spelling). The first Yugos I saw were
essentially Fiats 600 with a slightly larger 750cc engine. They also
produced the Fiat 127 and Fiat 128 models in licence under the name Yugo.
The Yugo that was available in the US for a while was a Fiat 127 with
coachwork that was given a more "modern" look, ie more square than the
somewhat rounded Fiat 127. I think they also produced a car of their own
design but I am not sure of that. Fiats were made under licence in Spain
under the name of Seat. And of course in Russia where the Lada was a Fiat
125 built under licence for years and years. Yugos, Seats and Ladas were
usually scorned. As a whole the built quality of Yugos and Seats was not as
good as the Fiat's. The ladas were scorned because of a lack of luxury
items. However all these cars were essentially obsolete cars that were still
sold because they were cheap new cars, like Hyundais in the USA. Ladas are
actually pretty good, sturdy cars, built to survive bad Russian weather and
roads. The Fiat 125 was actually car of the year in 1967. Contrary to urban
myth in the US ("fix it again tony") Fiats are actually good cars that serve
the purpose that they were built for very well, ie to provide cheap reliable
motoring to people with limited income in a congested overcrowded
environment with congested narrow roads. They build more cars than the "big
three"combined. The most interesting Fiat that is built under licence is a
1950s model, i think the model 1600, that is still built in India to this
day (like Morris Oxfords and the like).

Dolle Dolf

> Sorry Bruce -- it IS spelled "Yugo"; it was a small econo car
> manufactured in Yugoslavia in the mid-to-late '80s and sold in the US.
> Horrid car. I believe you are thinking of the Fiat Uno, perhaps (I
> could be wrong on the Uno, being an American and not all that
> well-versed in cars not sold on these shores).

> -- JB

> On Sat, 10 Jul 1999 19:29:58 +1000, "Bruce Kennewell"

> >I think the spelling is "Ugo" and the car has a 500cc engine,
> >Randy....something like the 1960s Fiat 500.

> >> > There isn't a FF wheel made today that I would trade my ECCI for. In
> >> fact
> >> > the only way that I'll ever be separated from my ECCI is to upgrade
> >> to a
> >> > newer ECCI:) I bet the TSW owners feel the same way.

> >> > You'll always be happy with your Yugo until you try a Ferrari. When
> >> you do
> >> > you'll realize what you've been missing:)

> >> Hmmm. Just to play the devil's advocate (since the devil is apparently
> >> too cold to do it himself), which would give you a better driving
> >> experience; a fully operational Yugo (whatever that may be :-), or a
> >> Ferrari that has no engine?

> >> Randy

GPL force feedback