rec.autos.simulators

I just read that Microsoft is developing an Indycar-based sim to be
called CART Precision Racing.  Supposedly it will make use of MMX
technology, for what that's worth.

Anybody else got any more detailed info on this sim, such as 3D hardware
to be supported (if any, since it's to be an MMX-enhanced program), etc.
etc. ?

Thanks,

Bob Chalfin

Simulator ***world
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Where did you hear this? Last I heard Sony had some sort of rights to
CART. I just hope somebody starts a good next-generation sim of
indycar.

Problem is, Papy isn't staying with you on this one. They're done with
indycar, so they say.

And what is it that is so bad about GP2? I love ICR2, but even I have
to admit that they just don't have the knack for road courses
(non-ovals, rather). They are best at ovals. They just don't give
enough sense of being "firmly on the ground" for the courses- their
accelleration, and their braking has always, since "Indy500 the sim"
seemed "mushy", and their sound feedback for what your wheels are
doing (skidding, spinning, etc.) is terrible. These things are
necessary to feeling your way around a course. And, above all, ICR2's
lack of "curbs" means an innordinate reliance on "jersey barriers"-
which in, for example, the case of the upcoming Australian race, makes
for a very unrealistic experience. Try racing Australia in ICR2, then
watch the next race on TV- the real racers bounce all over the place
off of curbs, and in general, race a very different sort of course
from the sim. In the sim, you just fight all the time to keep off the
walls; in the real race, there just aren't so many walls.

Then you've got courses like Portland, where they couldn't put walls,
and since there are no curbs giving you visual and audio feedback of
where you are either, you just sort of go flying in to the grass... It
is it's own pleasure and challenge, but it just doesn't quite simulate
the real thing as well as GP2 does their courses.

I think one reason for NASCAR's success is that Papy is fantastic with
ovals. Once you are up to speed and dealing with drafting and other
cars, then I think the cars feel a lot like what the actual cars look
like (if that makes any sense to anyone). Furthermore, you don't need
"curbs" on ovals. You can just have those "jersey barrier" sorts of
walls papy uses.

I am reluctant to post much about this, mainly because I don't know any
details about the actual product.  I am going to try and get the PM
connected to Sim Racing News.  He might be open to this.  He might not.  I
can't control that.  I can say that the PM is an avid race fan.  He attends
Indy and F-1 races on a regular basis.  He also plays Grand Prix 2, Indycar
2 and Nascar 2.  He has a***pit in his office.  He understands what the
racing simulation community enjoys and wants.  I really think he will
deliver a good product.  As a side, I will push that it runs on both 95 and
NT (no guarantees, but it makes sense).

-Paul

Here are some of the suggestions that I made.  This is not all of them and
some of these are obvious, but GP2 doesn't measure tire temps....

Car Adjustments
Garage Only
        shocks
        springs
        camber
        gear ratios
        remove fuel (ie - going from 40 gal to 5 gal)
Pits and Garage
        front wing adjustments
        rear wing adjustments
        wickerbill adjustments
        tire compund
        tire pressure
        add fuel
        measure tire temps
In Car Only
        turbo boost
        brake bias
        front anti-sway bar
        rear anti-sway bar
        fuel mixture
        tire status feedback

Miscellaneous
First and foremost, get the physics model correct.  Papyrus sims place too
much emphesis on high speed downforce and don't model low speed handling
correctly.  An IndyCar should not spin out of control at less than 25 mph.
This can happen with ICR2.

Developt the team concept.  This is somewhat included in Grand Prix 2, but
is totally ignored by Papyrus.

Eliminate the need for hacking.  Provide a Paint Shop for painting the
cars, pit crews and helmet.  Provide a driver profile editor with details
of the driver's profile content.  Microsoft could provide downloadable
profiles after each major race.  Plan for the future, include at least two
chassis' and engine types that are labeled as 'UnTitled'.  That way new
chassis and new engines can be included as they become available.  This
would require a chassis editor and an engine editor.

Incorporate a race engineer.  The driver is not the all encompassing
descision maker that other racing sims portray him to be.  This option
could be turned on or off, but a race engineer could supply valuable
feedback to the driver via .WAV files.  Help with sway bar settings, brake
bias, turbo boost, fuel mixture and pit strategies.

Incorproate a spotter.  The spotter would be a .WAV file that would inform
the player of cars approaching from the rear.  An alternative to a .WAV
file would be a small on-screen graphic that would lite up when cars are
approaching form the rear.  This would be similar to how Spectrum
Holobyte's "Mig-29" spotted missiles.

God Bless,
Steve

1.  When?  Are we looking at 1998 before we see this?  You said you went to a
couple of open meetings, but you didn't say when they were.  I just want to
know when I might actually see this product.

2.  Is there a feature set available yet?  I'd like to know what is to be in
it, tracks (if any - gosh it'd suck without any of them), net play (with MS
games this seems to be very likely now), editing abilities......

3.  This might be a bit much but......
if the feature set and delivery dates haven't been set, would it be possible
to send suggestions to someone at MS?  I read yours, but was thinking maybe if
enough folks here on the list could send their opinions and support that maybe
some of these managerial abilities could be included.

Thanks for your help.  The info is greatly appreciated.

  Andy Backa        The only skills I have the patience to learn are

                    - Calvin and Hobbes

  Chewey Pages: http://www.cs.unb.ca/grads/b9yc/web/chewey.html

-- Bill

I know this is a long shot, especially to ask it of Microsoft, but
how about a PowerPC-native Macintosh version?

BTW, your suggestions for the sim are great...I hope the PM values your
opinion (and monitors this newsgroup)!

Keep us posted.

-Steve

--
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Voice:  (206) 869-7284          8271 - 154th Ave. NE
FAX:    (206) 869-5325          Redmond, WA 98052 USA

: If it's anything like GP2, I'll stay with papy on this one !
: --
: -------
: Chasman

: Simulator ***world
: http://www.racesimcentral.net/

He said microSOFT not microPROSE....
--
_________________________       _________________________      ____________
Sam Ponzi                 -    -     BENETTON RACING     -    -

                            --        FLY AIR CANADA       --  ------------

One thing I'd like to see in a sim is time simulation.  That is to say, if
I am qualifying and I want to change shocks, then in the current sims that
can be done INSTANTLY.  Meaning I go into the garage with 0:20:34.435s
remaining in Qualifying, go into the garage and change shocks only to come
out of the garage with 0:20:34.435s left in Qualifying.

It takes time to make a shock change.  Or any MAJOR change for that
matter.  Each team should be a little random at their abilities to make
major adjustments.  That way if I have 8 mins left in Qualifying and it
would take 10 mins to make a shock change, then I will just have to live
with the shocks for the remaining time in Q or try some other quicker
changes to tweak out some time on my next flyers.

And I don't know of a sim yet that has changing track conditions DURING
the race.  I want to see it where I have the setup tweaked to be nuetral
at the begining of the race, but because as the race went on the track
changed, maybe my car would go loose, or maybe push.  That way making a
pit stop would be MORE than just adding gas.  I would have to decide if I
want more wing or tire pressure change or whatever is adjustable in the
pits during a race.

The papy sims pay off big to just leave the boost on 9, wing it to be
comfortable and keep the tires at a reasonable temp and you can easily
expect a Championship in your first go.

I'm just glad they let us tweak the AI to make it challenging no matter
what your abilities are.  Otherwise it would have been shelved because it
IS ridiculous how unstable the car is at low speeds.

For the record - Roberto Guerrero lost it because IndyCars have a
posi-traction rearend.  Meaning both tires spin when you light em up.  So
here he is in a straight line, punches the gas, breaks em loose and it
turns straight into the wall.  It turned because BOTH rear tires are
spinning and it just did what it wanted.  Possibly one gained traction
slightly faster than the other.  This would make it turn.  He had no
chance to correct it.  You must also remember that the pace lap is at 80
mph.  Just imagine what it would be like to have the horsepower to break
em loose at 80 mph!!  BUT, he's a professional....should have anticipated
it.