rec.autos.simulators

    I've got the Act Labs Force RS w/shifter and have these settings in the
core.ini.
[ Joy ]
allow_force_feedback = 1
force_feedback_damping = 40.000000
force_feedback_latency = 0.000000
max_steering_torque = 100.000000

    First, I don't remember steering being this hard!  All my old cars with
out power steering, the only time it was hard to steer was when I was at a
dead stop!  Just moving 1/2mph was enough to turn the wheel with just about
one finger. Christmas!  Is there any settings in the core.ini, or in window,
or where ever that'll help with this?

    Next,  Explain what these settings are above.
Allow_Force_feedback: I imagine just turns the overall effects on.
Force_Feedback_damping: is what?  I assume it's how  sluggish the effect
feels?
Force_Feedback_latency: I assume is the amount of time between when you hit
something and when it's felt?
Max_Steer_Torque: is what?

    Any other setting I should know about?

Apologies if you've seen this (I'm sure some are tired of seeing this
reposted), but since the question keeps getting asked, I keep re-posting :-)

GRAND PRIX LEGENDS AND FORCE FEEDBACK:  A PRIMER IN CORE.INI SETTINGS

I believe GPL core.ini FF settings are extremely specific to your wheel,
your machine, and even your car setups and driving style.  However, I also
believe that there is a logical approach you can to take to individualizing
your settings.  With a proper understanding of what these settings do you
can produce realistically subtle tactile feedback that will enhance your
driving ability.  To that end, let's take a look at each of the FF core.ini
settings, shed some light on what they do, and discuss some practical
approaches to setting them in a way that works for you and your setup.

LATENCY:
This is essentially how far into the future (in seconds) the GPL software
predicts what forces will be needed and sends them to your wheel, thereby
overcoming latency.  I determined the latency setting by driving over curbs
repeatedly and adjusting the value until all four wheels produced individual
FF effects in sync with what I was seeing from an outside view of the car.

MAX STEERING TORQUE:
This is an interesting one.  This is not actually the maximum torque your
wheel will produce, but is instead the *THRESHOLD* at which your wheel
produces it's maximum force.  Let's just pick some numbers out of the air to
illustrate the point.  Let's say the GPL software models the torque of
shifting at high revs at 50N, fish-tailing through a corner at 200N, and a
complete wipe out at 300N.  If you were to set your max steering torque
threshold at
"50"  all of these effects would be equally powerful as all would produce
the maximum amount of torque possible.  So if you set this threshold value
too low the car is virtually undrivable and there is little distinction
between the various forces.  If you set this threshold value too high (say
2000), you'll lose all steering torque altogether as no steering torque
force will ever reach the threshold necessary to trigger maximum effect.  In
this example, setting the value to 300 would allow you to feel a marked
gradation between these 3 very different effects.

So how do you set this for your system?  First set damping in both the
windows controller panel and the GPL core.ini to 0.  We don't want to mess
with damping right now.  From a dead stop turn your wheel to full left or
right lock, take your hands off the wheel, and then gradually accelerate.
If the front wheels (and steering wheel) do not center under forward
momentum and your car continues in a perpetual circle, then the threshold
value is too high.  If instead, the wheel suddenly snaps to center and or
see-saws ***ly, then you have the threshold set too low.  If the forward
momentum of the car very gradually brings the front wheels (and the steering
wheel) into forward alignment, as you would expect in a real world car with
manual steering, then you've got the threshold value just about right.
Adjusting the threshold to a level that just barely produces a centering
effect at low speeds will result in a very drivable car and nice subtle
tactile inputs that will cue you as to the status of your vehicle.  Now here
is the part that really throws people:  the Max Steering Torque threshold
*ONLY* affects *STEERING TORQUE FORCE* or the forces related to engine
torque, torque caused by maneuvering through corners, wheel centering
torque, etc.  It does *NOT* affect any of the forces related to crashing
into guardrails or driving on grass.  For some odd reason, known only to
Papyrus, these latter type of effects are only affected by the damping
setting.

DAMPING:
This, contrary to some reports, does in fact do what it says.  It causes
increased "friction" or "viscosity" in the movement of the wheel and
therefore also tends to lessen some FF spikes.  But here's where it gets a
bit strange.  You'll find that as you increase the damping value, and the
friction on the wheel, you also increase the forces felt when driving on
grass or slamming into rails.  I recommend adjusting this value just high
enough to barely feel a subtle difference between pavement and grass when
one single wheel drops off the road.  Using this as a guide, you'll be able
to tell with your eyes closed if all four wheels are on the road.  Hitting
curbs will feel realistic, guard rails will give you a jolt (but usually
allow you to correct), and the wheel will not be so tight that you begin to
lose torque effects.

The key to good driving and useful tactile information is subtlety in each
of these FF settings.  Remember, GPL is not an arcade game!

Finally, in the Windows controller panel, I personally have Force Effects
set at 100% and dampening effects to 0% (you've already adjusted dampening
in the GPL core.ini so adding more damping in the controller panel will just
result in less subtle effects).  I like to use full linear steering
in GPL with a steering ratio of 15:1.   These latter two settings are purely
a matter of taste, but you should keep in mind that they may effect the way
you feel the forces at work in your wheel or at least the way your car
responds as torque is placed on the wheel.  Once you find a car setup that
suits your driving style you may want to tweak the core.ini FF settings to
match your setup.

Hope this helps.

--
Chris "Ambulater" Lee
"Don't Bother Running.........You'll Just Die Tired."
Reviews at www.sim-arena.com

Mike, I've got some settings you might want to try under 'Controller and
Game Settings' at slottweak.
If you had a LWFF before (or didn't use FF) you also might want to try
turning the Overall Device Gain down to about 60% and work your way up
slowly if you're comfortable with it.

--
Slot

Tweaks & Reviews
www.slottweak.com

Mike,
GTX_SlotCar webpage works great for my FF needs!! I use them all
the time and really help let me get a good feel for my FF Race Wheel!
Cheers Thom_j.
P.S. Gotta question for ya GTX.. Please read header:
"Again Please!!?? SBK2001 & Quillemost FF Joystick Prob!!"
Maybe you can help with this & make somekind of settings for
SBK2001 too?? Tia!! <G>

| Mike, I've got some settings you might want to try under 'Controller and
| Game Settings' at slottweak.
| If you had a LWFF before (or didn't use FF) you also might want to try
| turning the Overall Device Gain down to about 60% and work your way up
| slowly if you're comfortable with it.
|
|
| --
| Slot
|
| Tweaks & Reviews
| www.slottweak.com
|
|


| >     I've got the Act Labs Force RS w/shifter and have these settings in
| the
| > core.ini.
| > [ Joy ]
| > allow_force_feedback = 1
| > force_feedback_damping = 40.000000
| > force_feedback_latency = 0.000000
| > max_steering_torque = 100.000000
| >
| >     First, I don't remember steering being this hard!  All my old cars
| with
| > out power steering, the only time it was hard to steer was when I was at
a
| > dead stop!  Just moving 1/2mph was enough to turn the wheel with just
| about
| > one finger. Christmas!  Is there any settings in the core.ini, or in
| window,
| > or where ever that'll help with this?
| >
| >     Next,  Explain what these settings are above.
| > Allow_Force_feedback: I imagine just turns the overall effects on.
| > Force_Feedback_damping: is what?  I assume it's how  sluggish the effect
| > feels?
| > Force_Feedback_latency: I assume is the amount of time between when you
| hit
| > something and when it's felt?
| > Max_Steer_Torque: is what?
| >
| >     Any other setting I should know about?
| >
| >
| >
| >
|
|

Sorry I can't help on this one, Thom. I don't have SBK2001. Guillemot uses
standard iForce drivers like the Force RS and some other wheels. Do you lose
FF in the wheel,too, or just the joystick? You might want to try this: when
you lose FF, stay in the game and turn off your wheel or joystick, wait a
minute, then turn it back on. Does your FF come back?

--
Slot

Tweaks & Reviews
www.slottweak.com

Slot, With all due respect to your expertise, I wonder if you would consider
taking another look at your settings on your page.  I've played around with
them quite a bit:
Core.ini:

[ Joy ]
allow_force_feedback = 1                ; Use FF if device has it
force_feedback_damping = 5000     ; this is force feedback strength, not
damping
force_feedback_latency = 0.0045    ; force feedback latency (secs), use a
low number
max_steering_torque = 2800            ; this is damping (2500 for the Force
RS)

The damping setting of 5000 will indeed result in very strong effects for
guard rails, curbs, grass, and such.  Oddly enough, these types of effects
are tied to increased viscosity/damping in GPL (bizarre but true).
Unfortunately, the max steering torque threshold of 2500 - 2800 will result
in nearly non-existent torque forces related to
steering/traction/slippage/wheel centering etc.  Max steering torque is a
*THRESHOLD* value that *only* effects wheel torque forces (again bizarre but
true).  When you raise the threshold too high, no forces modeled in GPL will
be strong enough to reach the threshold and produce the maximum wheel torque
force possible.  Give it a try.  Keep your current settings (as above), but
set damping to 0.  When you do this you'll have little or no force feedback
at all of any kind.  Now set the max steering threshold to a lower number
like 300 or less (keeping damping at 0).  Now you'll feel wheel centering
and other torque forces more strongly and they'll get stronger the lower you
set the threshold.  Your wheel will center under gentle forward acceleration
at 300 but won't at 2500.  As you lower the threshold further you'll
eventually experience "clamping" where the threshold is so low that nearly
all the torque forces feel like they are of the same magnitude.  Note that
while your doing this that you won't feel any collision forces because those
forces are set separately through damping.  So first you set your max torque
threshold to a value that will cause wheel centering under gentle forward
momentum, then adjust your damping upward until collision and grass effects
are where you want them.  I use the following settings with my force RS:
[ Joy ]
allow_force_feedback = 1                ; Use FF if device has it
force_feedback_damping = 350.0       ; force feedback damping &
collision/grass effects
force_feedback_latency = 0.025        ; force feedback latency (secs)
max_steering_torque = 300.0         ; steering torque threshold giving max
device force

Give it a try! Very nice site by the way,,,,you're much braver than me to do
all those modifications.  Makes me nauseas just thinking about it.  :-)

--
Chris "Ambulater" Lee
"Don't Bother Running.........You'll Just Die Tired."
Reviews at www.sim-arena.com

Chris,

    Please, in no way consider this a personal attack. I know my writing
style can often appear cold and factual without much consideration to it's
tone. In "real life" I'm a bit more charming ;)   I can see that you've
spent quite a bit of time thinking about your settings, as I have. We'll
probably never see eye to eye on this, but there's nothing wrong with
presenting different setup theories.

    Your settings seem to be pretty much the same as those on most sites,
though your theory is expressed differently than some. These are the same
ones that have been around since the 1.1 patch came out. When I introduced
my settings a year ago, we had several debates here on r.a.s. I used the
'old style' settings myself at first but never felt comfortable with them.
When I finally decided to throw old wisdom out the window and start fresh, I
found that what I came up with (as a natural feeling setup) was for the most
part different than what was being done and what was described in the 1.1
patch text (except for damper settings). In an effort to understand why, I
spent weeks reading and studying how iForce works. I didn't become an expert
programmer, but I did get a good understanding of how things worked.  As you
suggest that I take another look at the settings on my page, please
understand that I didn't come up with them in five minutes, but over a few
weeks. However, in the past year I have gone back over them several times to
see if I can come up with a different conclusion.

    I firmly believe that  people should use whatever settings they're
happiest with. I almost didn't post my own settings because I didn't want to
labeled as a radical. But with the introduction of new wheels, the term
'notchiness' was also appearing more and more so I decided to let beginners
know there where more setup choices available that might satisfy them and
perhaps they should experiment with settings that were outside of the
conventional wisdom of the time. Trying them only takes a few minutes and
costs nothing. Whether someone uses settings based on my 2:1
(damping/torque) theory or settings based on the 'old theory' doesn't matter
to me, but I would like everyone to come up with settings that they enjoy.

Here are some things that I have trouble agreeing with, or understanding
with, the settings you and others have presented.

    I have a hard time with anything labeled "(bizarre but true)".  I don't
understand why anyone would want to tie force inputs to a damping setting
and I don't know how it's possible to do this in programming or how iForce
could interpret it properly. I know it's not done the same way as the 'jolt'
setting in Nascar Heat.

    This is not true if you have the damping to torque ratio set at roughly
2:1. I even feel wheel loading on elevation changes.

    This is a big issue for me. I don't consider it bizarre because it is
possible to have the torque setting so that it only affects wheel forces,
but I don't consider it true either because this setting also effects the
stength of the forces felt on textures like grass, curbs and rails. We agree
that a high damping value increases these forces, right? Now, with the
damping set at 300, 600, 2000 or even 5000, make adjustments to the torque
setting. You'll notice that increasing the torque will decrease the forces
felt on these textures and, conversly, lowering the torque value will
increase them. So, *threshold* doesn't *only* affect wheel torque forces.
Of course, setting the damping to a very low value gives you no force
feedback on these textures - regardless of the value you have set for
torque.  To me, this sounds suspiciously like the "torque" settings are
behaving similar to damping, and the "damping" settings are behaving similar
to "strength".

I cut out the text here to save space, but I have already spent hours
playing around with these settings.

    This example is used often and for some reason a great deal has been
made about setting the torque value so that the wheel will center as you
accelerate. In fact, I've toiled over this myself until I realized that it
has absolutely no value in setting up force feedback.
    First, the wheel centering should be (and is)  programmed into the
physics model of the car, completely independant of force feedback
programming.  In other words, the force feedback should not be dictating
what the physics model is supposed to do, the physics model should dictate
to the force feedback. The wheels are always trying to center themselves.
You can stop them by holding the steering wheel, or simply setting a high
torque value (decreasing the force feedback strength) so that the physics
model centering effect can't overcome the wheel's internal drag. It amounts
to the same thing. The force feedback should be set to *allow* the physics
model to center the wheel, but not to *force* it to do so.
    Second, in application (when you're actually driving) it's not important
that the wheel has a strong centering effect at 2 mph. It only matters that
you feel the effect at your slowest speed through any corner and on high
speed straights. The settings I use do this nicely.
    Third, there is a little check box in the Controller Panel called
Default Spring that allows you to apply a centering percent even when using
force feedback. It's independant of forces programmed into the game. Small
input voltages  to the wheel (subtle force feedback) over ride this
centering, so using it does *not* decrease the subtle forces you feel while
driving. In other words, it's okay to check this box. That's why it's there.
If someone is generally happy with the force feedback feeling they're
getting in their setup, but feel the need to have the wheel center at 2 mph,
checking this box will do the trick and is better than spending countless
hours chasing after a combination that may be impossible. It doesn't matter
how you get to the feel you like, only that you get there.

In my setups, I'm very cautious about clamping. For those with an electronic
background, clamping (or compressing) is the clipping of the signals sent to
the wheel. iForce has a range of 10,000.  Visually, the upper and lower
regions of the sine wave are truncated. For audiophiles, it's the same
annoying thing you hear through your amplifier.
    In GPL's 1.1 patch text, it's mentions that damping should be any value
"up to several hundred". It's one of the few things I agree with and the
thing most neglected in the 'old style' settings. If I were to say (and I
have) that I use a torque value of 275 or 300 and a damping value of 600
(and didn't give my theories for this), there wouldn't be any dispute and I
seriously doubt these posts would have even been written. In the GPL
settings I posted on T&R, I do in fact say to try settings of 600/300 and
up, keeping the ratio of damping to torque at roughly 2:1. The feeling is
much the same at this ratio given any 'reasonable' values.  I use higher
settings like 5000/2500 to keep the signals in the middle of the iForce
range and avoid signal clipping. I also find that these settings breathe a
little better and allow finer adjustments.

    I took this part out of your previous post. It's one area that you don't
go with conventional wisdom and I do. (you radical <G>)
    GPL is one of the few games to use Constant Force programming (Vector
Forces in iForce studio) instead of Spring Force programming. In doing so,
the Spring Gain in the Controller Panel has no (it can not have any) effect
in the game. Setting this to anything but zero has, on occassion, sent
spurious annomilies to the wheel generally felt as spiking or erractic
behavior (and sometimes sudden loss of force feedback). It does this on some
systems and doesn't on others.
    The Damper Gain does effect GPL in that it adds viscousity to the wheel.
It shouldn't mask any of the force feedback effects in the game, though, as
those signals are added after the setting. In actual application, setting it
to 100% could possibly mask minor voltage inputs felt in the rim of the
wheel, but a setting of 60% or so certainly shouldn't. So increasing this to
get a firmer feel at the wheel is acceptable.
    These are 'text book' explainations, but I have tested them for hours
with the LWFF, Ferrari and Force RS wheels and they certainly seem to be
accurate.

Thanks for the kind words about the site.  I visited sim-arena and must say
that the layout and graphics are gorgeous. If I had any artistic talent at
all, I'd be spending my time doing that.
    I'm writing this reply at work and trying to rush though it. There may
be areas where I could explain myself better if I took more time, and I hope
the overall tone is not cold and offensive.

--
Slot

Tweaks & Reviews
www.slottweak.com

Your tone is not offensive at all and I enjoy the discussion.  I do believe
I understand your points and believe you were probably the first to identify
that the "damping" value actually effects the strength of many FF effects in
GPL (good catch).  So we can definitely agree on that.  I guess we could
argue whether there is actually a true damping effect being produced by this
setting, but I won't because I would agree it is not quite the same thing as
setting damping in the control panel.  There probably isn't hardly a hair's
worth of difference between us on this value when you get right down to it
since we agree it is related to the strength of the effects and is not a
traditional damping value.  I guess it's mainly the max torque steering
value that we will have to agree to disagree on.   If this value is viewed
as a threshold value as I believe this badly worded excerpt for the readme
suggests "max_steering_torque is the level of torque actually computed in
the game that will give the maximum force level on the device" then I
believe my interpretation is consistent with what is observed in the game.
In short, it is my argument and experience that settings of 2500
dramatically reduce the amount of torque effect felt.  I've tried your 2:1
settings and feel that I have to manually center my wheel upon exiting most
corners unless I have some default spring set.  I don't believe default
spring should be required since the game will do this for you so nicely.
When the game does this for you there is no default spring so you have many
different levels of wheel centering occurring depending on the motion of
your car at that moment.  I like that feedback.  In the end you are correct
that it comes down to preferences and there is no right or wrong, just your
preference.  It's really just a technical quibble on my part about the exact
nature of the max wheel torque setting, and a personal preference for more
pronounced torque/centering forces.  I hope you don't take this as some type
of a challenge or some sort of rude flame.  I enjoy discussion even when
(especially when) the parties have differing views.

--
Chris "Ambulater" Lee
"Don't Bother Running.........You'll Just Die Tired."
Reviews at www.sim-arena.com