rec.autos.simulators

F12002 - Is it worth it?

Damien Smit

F12002 - Is it worth it?

by Damien Smit » Mon, 17 Jun 2002 23:22:39

OK, here's something for you :-

- The AI in F12002 is rubbish.  Even GP2 is better.
- The multiplayer isn't a patch on GPL or NASCAR 2002

This means that F12002 is useless unless you're into hotlapping or LAN
***.

GPL is one of my favourite sims.  It's still the best all-round sim
available.  However.....

GPL = 36fps - That's bad enough, but I also get the impression of incorrect
3D scaling a la GP3 (also happens in the NASCAR series)   People often
comment that F1200X has a good sensation of speed.   It's not really - it's
just a correct sensation due to the correct 3D scaling.  The future of sims
is locked at at least 60fps to allow real-world motion visual feedback.  ISI
are already there.   A good physics engine demands a proper 3D graphics
physics engine to allow full visual feedback.

I could also mention the exaggerated braking in GPL when throttle is applied
but that's just nitpicking.... ; )

Ah well, not as bad as an old dog who doesn't 'get' new tricks... : P

FWIW, credit where it's due is my motto...

Gerry Aitke

F12002 - Is it worth it?

by Gerry Aitke » Mon, 17 Jun 2002 23:58:43


> GPL is one of my favourite sims.  It's still the best all-round sim
> available.  However.....

> GPL = 36fps - That's bad enough, but I also get the impression of incorrect
> 3D scaling a la GP3

An example from GLP please? What do I look for to see this 'effect' you
describe?

Example from 2002 too please?  

Can you thoroughly explain what you mean? That is a '3D graphics physics
engine'?

I don't understand what you mean here. Do you mean the brakes work
better if you keep your 'foot in' under braking?

I don't dispute that you say is true, with regard to any of the above
(I've not noticed it though) but your statements are somewhat vague and
woolly. I'm here to be convinced if adequate description and example can
be provided.

TIA

Gerry

jason moy

F12002 - Is it worth it?

by jason moy » Tue, 18 Jun 2002 03:51:42


> - The AI in F12002 is rubbish.  Even GP2 is better.

Really?  Is it worse than F12001?  I didn't mind the AI in F12k1 that
much after the first patch, except for a few turns at a few tracks (of
course, the important ones, like T1 almost anywhere).  I ran a few
races at Monaco in 2k1 yesterday and there were something amusing
about seeing cars doing barrel rolls in T1.

Hm.  I have to disagree with you, altho I'm not going to flat out say
you're wrong.  I find the sensation of speed in Papy sims to be what I
would expect if I were driving a car at 150-200mph with blinders on.
If you alter the POV in GPL you can get the same sensation of speed as
in F12k1, but I also find it impossible to drive from that
perspective.  Whether the increased sense of speed in F12k1 is due to
a different POV, as you say "correct 3d scaling", or an exaggeration
in 3D scaling, I don't know.  I'm just speculating here.

I actually did a test one day because I was thinking about this and
wanted to prove it to myself, so I drove down the local highway at 3
in the morning doing around 70-80 with a pair of glasses setup so I
had no peripheral vision.  And I'll be damned, what would normally
feel like a decent pace (in a Plymouth Renault, mind you) suddenly
seemed like riding a turtle.  If you look straight ahead, in the
direction of travel of a car, and completely ignore what's in your
peripheral vision, it seems like you're not moving.  The floaty
feeling of skipping along tarmac in a soft suspension car at that
speed reminds me very much of the Papyrus stock car model as well,
altho obviously I can't make a perfect comparison without having
driven a stiff-chassis stock car on a real track at high speed.

Hm.  The only thing I've never really liked in GPL is that you don't
need to do anything with the clutch when you're braking.  I don't race
professionally so I'm not going to speculate on whether the
throttle/braking problems, but what you're saying makes sense based on
my basic understanding of car physics.  I would expect braking with
the throttle open to be more difficult.  I'm going to have to play
around with that a bit because honestly while I use my left foot to
brake I don't have very good technique at all when it comes to using
both pedals effectively.  I don't doubt what you're saying here at
all, tho.

Jason

Andre Warring

F12002 - Is it worth it?

by Andre Warring » Tue, 18 Jun 2002 06:50:59



>> - The AI in F12002 is rubbish.  Even GP2 is better.

>Really?  Is it worse than F12001?  I didn't mind the AI in F12k1 that
>much after the first patch, except for a few turns at a few tracks (of
>course, the important ones, like T1 almost anywhere).  I ran a few
>races at Monaco in 2k1 yesterday and there were something amusing
>about seeing cars doing barrel rolls in T1.

I haven't raced against the AI that much, but I think they brake WAY
too soon, and they are too fast in other corners. Overall I can make
them drive the same laptimes as I do, but their tempo on the track is
totally different than mine, making it very hard to really race them.

One of the two points where GP3/GP3.1 is better than F1 2002 (the
other point is the weather)

Andre

jackie_chan_fa

F12002 - Is it worth it?

by jackie_chan_fa » Tue, 18 Jun 2002 07:49:54

The AI in F12002 isnt rubbish. Give it a chance. Play Grand Turismo 3,
there's some bad AI (non existant)

Hell at least the cars in f12002 brake on a yellow and drive around you. :)
And get this, they even pass you without driving through you.

I'm so used to GT3 :) But i'm enjoying f12002 quite a bit. And unless theres
any other F1 racing sims out there that are better... F12002 is the best
there is that i've played so far.  Its not as if theres a whole lot of new
racing sims these days. (GT4 is ok but buggy and slow paced)

I refuse to keep playing GPL. No rear wing, i dont about the cars. Papyrus
is a great developer but the game is ancient.  OH yeah....

NASCAR SUCKS. Not the game, the entire form of racing. IRL with it. I cant
stand ovals... and even more, i cant stand Nascar cars.  Although N2002
looks so dam cool :)

So what do we do? i say play f12002.

The replays are wierd, but what can you do. The driving part of it is good
enough to make it enjoyable. Its not perfect, but from what i've played its
the best f1 sim out there right now.

-adam

Haqsa

F12002 - Is it worth it?

by Haqsa » Tue, 18 Jun 2002 08:37:30

Have you tried turning the AI sliders up to 100%?  They seem to run much
more realistically when you do that.



> I haven't raced against the AI that much, but I think they brake WAY
> too soon, and they are too fast in other corners. Overall I can make
> them drive the same laptimes as I do, but their tempo on the track is
> totally different than mine, making it very hard to really race them.

> One of the two points where GP3/GP3.1 is better than F1 2002 (the
> other point is the weather)

> Andre

Andre Warring

F12002 - Is it worth it?

by Andre Warring » Wed, 19 Jun 2002 04:57:30

On Sun, 16 Jun 2002 18:49:54 -0400, "jackie_chan_fan"


>I refuse to keep playing GPL. No rear wing, i dont about the cars. Papyrus
>is a great developer but the game is ancient.  OH yeah....

Chess is an ancient game too.

Andre

Andre Warring

F12002 - Is it worth it?

by Andre Warring » Wed, 19 Jun 2002 04:58:43



I have the AI slider at 100%. I messed around with that Agressive
slider, tried 100%, but the AI wreck themselves way too much then.
I set it back to the default 50%.

Andre

Rob Adam

F12002 - Is it worth it?

by Rob Adam » Wed, 19 Jun 2002 05:00:02

Yeah but the tire model sucks

Damien Smit

F12002 - Is it worth it?

by Damien Smit » Wed, 19 Jun 2002 06:19:23

I've been playing around with the FOV and I think Jason is right - GPL and
N2002 do appear to be correctly scaled, it's simply a combination of low
detail track textures, stuttery frame rates and wide FOVs that gives the
wrong impression of speed...

Oops - that was a typo - that should read '3D graphics engine'

Yep

Nice to know you've got an open mind...

Damien Smit

F12002 - Is it worth it?

by Damien Smit » Wed, 19 Jun 2002 06:22:17

Exactly.  The AI are too fast in some corners and too slow in others.  This
makes it very difficult to follow closely behind them.  The AI in the
FIAGTV3 mod at SPA I found to be very human-like.

Damien Smit

F12002 - Is it worth it?

by Damien Smit » Wed, 19 Jun 2002 06:23:37

It's also pretty bad the way that they fishtale all over the place at
Monaco, bumping into the walls constantly..looks ridiculous.

Damien Smit

F12002 - Is it worth it?

by Damien Smit » Wed, 19 Jun 2002 06:25:54

I was talking to a guy in another forum who said he loves smashing the front
and rear wings off in F1 2002 as soon as he leaves the pits and then doing
laps GPL-style. : )

Haqsa

F12002 - Is it worth it?

by Haqsa » Wed, 19 Jun 2002 09:05:07

I guess it must depend on the track then.  I think the only tracks at
which I have raced the AI are Spa, Imola, and the A-1 Ring.  Maybe
Suzuka too, don't remember for sure.  Anyway they seemed fine at those
tracks.  D'oh, now that I think about it I am thinking of F1 2001.  I
haven't raced the AI yet in F1 2002.  Do you find the AI to be different
from F1 2001?


mach

F12002 - Is it worth it?

by mach » Wed, 19 Jun 2002 11:39:18



What do you need more than 36fps for? The human eye can't notice individual
images at 24fps or more (we perceive them as a fluent motion). No, TV doesn't
use 50 or 60 frames per second - that's 50 or 60,*fields* per second they use,
since the image is interlaced, it's divided into an odd and an even field
(the odd and even-numbered lines of the image) because of design, it's easier
to draw half the image and later the other half from top to bottom each time
than having to draw the whole image from top to bottom in a single sweep.
(Don't make me go into the technical details here, it'd be too much of an OT)

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