rec.autos.simulators

by **Eldre** » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 05:16:57

>To me.....the draft-o-meter does not represent a sim.

Draft-o-meter? I didn't see that mentioned anywhere...

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.racesimcentral.net/~epickett
My .sig file is in the shop for repairs...

Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **Steve Blankenshi** » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 05:31:55

Yup; as I said...hard to compare due to the car differences. Apples &
oranges to a degree.

But they both still fall from the tree... ;-)

SB

> What you are describing isn't necessarily physics model as much as it is
> physics. F1 cars are light and tightly sprung, giving them much higher
> ride frequencies and much lower chassis response than stock cars. You
> can even experience this within a single sim by trying extremely high
> and then low spring rates. Lower spring and damper rates give you more
> chassis response, which translates to more feel.

> > ... but I still think
> > Papy's giving you better feedback on what the physics model is doing.
> Papy
> > cars just TALK to you more. I also like the telemetry, though that
> was
> > apparently an add-on done privately by a simracer (Si-Phi?) for
> F1-2001 and
> > incorporated into the sequel. Would be out of place in a Nascar sim,
> > though.

by **Joe Marque** » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 05:40:54

I know difference of opinion are encouraged, but are you sure this kind of
friendliness is allowed? I think it's frowned upon, flaming is required.
;0)

Thanks for a very detailed and thoughtful response. I do agree with most of
it. I was making a much simpler analysis of the driving feel head-to-head
between N2K2 and F1 2002. I'm just hooked on F12K2, like the "old days"
when I first installed GPL.

I ran over 60 laps last night at Catalunya and I'm simply ***ed to the
process of driving, checking the telemetry, tweaking the set-up and trying
to shave another damn .5 seconds off my time! This is the "deepest" I've
ever been into a sim and I'm learning so much from the telemetry system.
Overall, F1 is a joy to drive. Racing the AI isn't too shabby either,
althought they can get a little crazy as you mentioned.

Cheers,
--
Joe Marques

by **Joe Marque** » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 05:47:06

F12K2 with FSAA runs with a negligible drop? What are your specs and
settings since I can't get the same results. F12K2 really needs AA (it's
jaggy at 1600x1200 bc of my 21" monitor) but I can't do it without dropping
too low. I'm also a bit greedy/lazy since I not only don't want to drop any
settings, I don't feel like testing to figure out which settings are the
biggest performance hogs. ;0)

Here's my system:

AMD XP1600
GF3 Ti500
512 RAM

Game set to high on everything (nothing on full), 1280x1024 32-bit. I have
turned off the hud and broadcast stuff as well as set speech to low (found
too much stuttering with position updates during race).

I get 30+ at Catalunya racing with a full-field at the start and
consistently 40+ when things thin out. I get only low 20's with 2xFSAA at
the start and then around 30 during the race.

--
Joe Marques

> Must be a system thing, FSAA works fine in both games for me, with
> negligible FPS drop.

> > True. Maybe those screenshots were just a "rough draft" so to speak,
> but
> > they don't look as good as Papy to me, even with all the extra
> trackside
> > objects. I think it's the "jaggies". Noticed that with f1 2002-01,
> cant run
> > aa at all w/o huge fps drop. Not so in n2002.

by **John Pancoas** » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 05:55:02

Ed Martin quotes spell "Danger Will Robinson" already.

John

> This sounds pretty clearly like an *official* mod for F1-2002. No doubt
> ISI's in a better position to deliver a quality mod than us end-users, but
> the game engine currently falls well short of Papy's. Hard to see the
> multiplayer coming anywhere close, and it's probably significant they
didn't
> elaborate on that aspect. Looks like they might be feeling the first
> ripples from RL though; a quote from Ed Martin:

> "I think NASCAR Thunder 2003 for the PC will be the most open-ended
> architecture racing sim ever made in terms of how you can tweak it and how
> much modifying the fans are going to be able to do. We're already working
> hard with the community to start building some really cool mods for the
game
> that will be out there when we ship."

> Time will tell...

> SB

> > "Chad Sparks" wrote...
> > > Posted this in the Papyrus Nascar and Simulation forums,
> > > but you guys might appreciate it also, considering you
> > > probably know who ISS is.

> > > Gotta read this interview, they say they're going all
> > > out "simulation". These are the same people who make the
> > > awesome F1 2002. The EA guy even mentions they will be
> > > more "sim" than Papyrus and will have more options and
> > > tweaks than anybody, bar none.

> > Nice, competition is good. I have my doubts as to their online record,
but
> > I'm sure they could hurt Papyrus in the offline market.

> > Possibly this will spur a more intense effort from Papyrus to stay on
top
> of
> > the Nascar simulation game. In an ideal world it might also make them
> > diversify to attack EA's share in the open wheel and touring market. ;-)

> > Jan.
> > =---
> > CART!! AUSSIE V8!!

by **John Pancoas** » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 06:00:16

I'd agree with that; if Heat's multi had some improvements, it'd be a
better sim in some ways than Nx. I.e., at least in Heat you could bump and
grind a bit(though sometimes to much to be sure). But Heat needs more than
that unfortunately.
In Nx, you look at a car wrong, and it's in the wall. MUCH to sensitive
online collision detection.

John

> NASCAR Heat had descent multiplayer, I'm sure Ed MArtin will bring some
> expertise over and hopefully give us something good. Actually, I'd go as
far
> to say NH has good multiplayer, but not nearly as good as Papy's

> Thanks,
> Alex

> > Sounds interesting! Looks like they have set out with Papy square in
> their
> > in sites, and this is a good thing for everyone, even if you are a
devote
> > Papy fan.

> > I say this because, to a certain degree, I think Papy has been resting
on
> > their laurels lately. Yes, the game has been freshened each year, but
> > nothing really spectacular has been improved.

> > Like the AI, which, IMHO, is actually getting _worse_, more canned, and
> > nearly impossible to drive with the way it is currently programmed.

> > And the canned damage, and the lack of additive repairs. I can
understand
> > not being able to model _every_ minute factor of damage, but geez, it's
> got
> > to get a lot better than it is. When you have 10 cars running around
the
> > track with the exact same damage level, running the exact same speeds,
> > looking the exact same way, it gets tiring and annoying.

> > I have one fear. I don't remember seeing the word "Multiplayer" come up
> > once, like it was decided beforehand to be a forbidden subject.

> > I for one would LOVE to see Ed Martin back here on RAS like he was when
> Heat
> > was the talk of the town. I have a feeling that with Sierra as the
> > publisher, he's going to be muzzled far more than he was in the old
days,
> > though, and that's a damned shame.

> > Papy is the king right now. We will all benifit from some serious
> > competition like this.

> > But, they HAVE to make the Multiplayer at least as good as Papy's, or
it's
> > not going to take off.

> > And if Sierra wants to charge $15 a month on their system, and re-create
> > what we had on TEN (with FULL ranking, tracking, scoring and tracking)
> then
> > I say cool. Where do I send the check.

> > -Larry

> > > Posted this in the Papyrus Nascar and Simulation forums, but you guys
> > might
> > > appreciate it also, considering you probably know who ISS is.

> > > Gotta read this interview, they say they're going all out
"simulation".
> > > These are the same people who make the awesome F1 2002. The EA guy
even
> > > mentions they will be more "sim" than Papyrus and will have more
options
> > and
> > > tweaks than anybody, bar none.

> > > http://gamespot.com/gamespot/stories/previews/0,10869,2875327,00.html

> > > ---
> > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > Version: 6.0.377 / Virus Database: 211 - Release Date: 7/15/2002

by **Joe Marque** » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 05:59:24

It's definitely you or the demo just sucked (too bad for EA since it's
backfiring on a great game). ;0)

F12K2 is the best modern F1 simulator I've ever played and IMO the best
racing simulator on the market. I just ran 60 laps last night at Catalunya
using a Logitech MOMO wheel (with very detailed FF thanks to a solid FF
implementation in F12K2) and I really felt every inch of the limits of the
car and the contour of the track.

You might want to give the full version a try if you like F1.

--
Joe Marques

> Maybe it's just me, but the F1 2002 demo I used felt like I was driving a
> toy Barbie car. No realistic physics at all. The graphics were cheesy.
Ran
> it at 1024x768 on GF3 Ti card.

> > Posted this in the Papyrus Nascar and Simulation forums, but you guys
> might
> > appreciate it also, considering you probably know who ISS is.

> > Gotta read this interview, they say they're going all out "simulation".
> > These are the same people who make the awesome F1 2002. The EA guy even
> > mentions they will be more "sim" than Papyrus and will have more options
> and
> > tweaks than anybody, bar none.

> > http://gamespot.com/gamespot/stories/previews/0,10869,2875327,00.html

> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.377 / Virus Database: 211 - Release Date: 7/15/2002

by **Steve Blankenshi** » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 06:33:58

Yeah; he's already talking about the great features "we" have in NT03, even
thought they already existed in F1-2002. Seems a pretty straightforward
port-over from the write-up, which should be WAY better than its predecessor
due to the ISI game engine. Tough competition for them though, butting
heads with Papy. All else aside, it'll be interesting just to see how they
drive relative to each other...

SB

by **John Pancoas** » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 07:09:59

Yep. Whatever happens, I agree with another poster that Sierra/Papy needs
some serious competition. Don't think this is it,(at least online), but
we'll see.

John

> Yeah; he's already talking about the great features "we" have in NT03,
even
> thought they already existed in F1-2002. Seems a pretty straightforward
> port-over from the write-up, which should be WAY better than its
predecessor
> due to the ISI game engine. Tough competition for them though, butting
> heads with Papy. All else aside, it'll be interesting just to see how
they
> drive relative to each other...

> SB

> > Ed Martin quotes spell "Danger Will Robinson" already.

> > John

by **Haqsa** » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 08:40:54

Hehe, ok I see the problem. Well it's twofold. First, I am using a 128
meg Ti 4200, which is able to do 2x and Quincunx FSAA with minimal frame
drop to begin with. Second, and the reason I am laughing, is that my
system is very much CPU bound, therefore the card is sitting there
waiting for the CPU even when I have FSAA enabled. I have a 900 mhz
Celeron, 256 meg of RAM. I typically get 20 fps at the start of a race
no matter what I do, although I do see 30's during a race even with FSAA
on. So part of the reason you are getting an FPS drop with FSAA is
because your CPU is too damn fast! ;o)

Also, probably a negligible effect but I run it in 1024x768x16. Uses a
whole lot less local RAM that way.

> F12K2 with FSAA runs with a negligible drop? What are your specs and
> settings since I can't get the same results. F12K2 really needs AA
(it's
> jaggy at 1600x1200 bc of my 21" monitor) but I can't do it without
dropping
> too low. I'm also a bit greedy/lazy since I not only don't want to
drop any
> settings, I don't feel like testing to figure out which settings are
the
> biggest performance hogs. ;0)

> Here's my system:

> AMD XP1600
> GF3 Ti500
> 512 RAM

> Game set to high on everything (nothing on full), 1280x1024 32-bit. I
have
> turned off the hud and broadcast stuff as well as set speech to low
(found
> too much stuttering with position updates during race).

> I get 30+ at Catalunya racing with a full-field at the start and
> consistently 40+ when things thin out. I get only low 20's with
2xFSAA at
> the start and then around 30 during the race.

> --
> Joe Marques

> > Must be a system thing, FSAA works fine in both games for me, with
> > negligible FPS drop.

> > > True. Maybe those screenshots were just a "rough draft" so to
speak,
> > but
> > > they don't look as good as Papy to me, even with all the extra
> > trackside
> > > objects. I think it's the "jaggies". Noticed that with f1 2002-01,
> > cant run
> > > aa at all w/o huge fps drop. Not so in n2002.

by **Haqsa** » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 08:43:29

You probably had all the driving aids on. They are on by default. Go
turn them all off and try again. It's the most realistic modern sim out
there.

by **Philste** » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 08:41:44

Yeah, I can already hear people complaining about the driver's arms in the
***pit view.

Is it me or the graphics look very "grainy"? I have noticed the same thing
regarding all the previous ISI titles.

--
Philippe "Philster" Sergerie

by **Dave Henri** » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:25:12

The streaming video version is free and you don't need to register, to get
the 'high quality' large file you DO need to register.

dave henrie

by **Dave Henri** » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:27:16

While the driving style does seem somewhat familiar, I think it should
be obvious to everyone that the demo driver was not DH...After all he did
pass 2 maybee 3 cars before wrecking. I take great pride in being able to
totally trash a car WITHOUT having another vehicle involved. And as far as
being able to actually pass
someone.....................................................................
....................................

dave henrie

by **Dave Henri** » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:31:10

the 'movie' is completely shown from INSIDE the***pit.
no worries there.
dave henrie

rec.autos.simulators

Wow, ISS does Nascar Thunder 2003!

Wow, ISS does Nascar Thunder 2003!

Wow, ISS does Nascar Thunder 2003!

Wow, ISS does Nascar Thunder 2003!

Wow, ISS does Nascar Thunder 2003!

Wow, ISS does Nascar Thunder 2003!

Wow, ISS does Nascar Thunder 2003!

Wow, ISS does Nascar Thunder 2003!

Wow, ISS does Nascar Thunder 2003!

Wow, ISS does Nascar Thunder 2003!

Wow, ISS does Nascar Thunder 2003!

Wow, ISS does Nascar Thunder 2003!

Wow, ISS does Nascar Thunder 2003!

Wow, ISS does Nascar Thunder 2003!

Wow, ISS does Nascar Thunder 2003!

Wow, ISS does Nascar Thunder 2003!