rec.autos.simulators

--
Thanks
Michael Horton
Webmaster of
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Home of the F2/F3 Hotlaps

and

http://www.racesimcentral.net/
HTML for Begineers

if you approach another driver very fast, the best is to get offline on
the straights an watch him for some turns - if he is very slow and
breaks early: voila! go pass him! if he brakes late and his line looks
like he is slower than you but not too slow, stay behind him in the next
corner and make a pass out of the next turn or into the turn after that.

yep: some have no respect, that's right, but what pisses ME off is some
hotlapper behind me who wants to pass me immediately where he approaches
me and hits me because he misjudged my racing style or my braking
abilities. I stick to this: the driver punting another one from the rear
is GUILTY ... well almost always ;-)

Lio

However, I disagree with Marko about them staying offline. The respect for
other drivers grows on experience, and when these guys get faster we have
more competent drivers out there. Nobody should discourage people getting
into online racing ... it's such a blast! :)

Hena

go alongside on the straights before the braking zones until you can
judge his driving style - if he is very early on the brakes: you just
passed him! if he is not, you can get back on the line ...

Lio

I consider myself very clean racer and I do respect other drivers _a lot_,
you can download replay of my G3 short race(This is F3 racing at it's best
IMO), from where you can judge my attitude in racing pretty well (1.9Mb).
Watch the whole race to the finish and you see what I mean.

http://www.racesimcentral.net/

I don't see my post as scaring people away, I see it as making them practice
safe racing before racing, because that's the only way to do it safely,
without this, the whole online etiquette is useless because no matter how
clean you are, you can't avoid accidents if someone else screws it up for
you. Best way to start the clean racing is to change your attitude towards
other drivers, this way you can also help yourself to finish more
races(without shift-r). All of you who hesitate that can you race online
races, do this:
download few hotlaps from the web and look at them and consider this: Are
you causing dangerous situations to this guy or can you race  _with_ him in
the same track knowing that he most likely will lap you eventually? Go into
his car and think yourself in front of him. Don't think that "can you beat
him?", that's wrong way to start onlineracing, because you won't beat him
and by thinking this way, you try more than you can handle and make it worse
not only for yourself, but everyone in the track. If you can race _safely_
with this guy, you can enter onlineracing and remember, you don't have to be
even nearly as fast as he is to do it safely.

"To finish first, you must first.....know what comes here, before entering
onlinerace..."....just kidding.. ;)

PS. No matter how much I learn to deal with slower drivers(and I've done
that a lot), there's always some surprises I just can't expect, no one can.

If a driver hasn't got enough experience to even shoot an occasional glance at
the mirrors and still maintain the car I do believe (and will risk the flames
:) that a bit more offline practise would be in order before joining an online
race. Acquiring the necessary skill level can't take much more than 15
minutes. :D Such basic situational awareness is, again IMO, more important
than being able to drive around the track when racing - especially online.

Cheers,
   /ft and his famouse SKr .50

Hena Hakkanen kirjoitti viestiss?

Maybe I didn't present that the way I should. I didn't mean they should stay
away forever, they just should adapt to onlineracing by practicing a bit
more and not jumping there without any clue how to race. One good way to do
this is to start first from F3 cars and learn the car a bit better and then
join F3 races and when he improves, then he could join F2 and F1 races too.
The basic control of the car should be mastered even a bit. I think even the
driver himself feels very frustrating if he is moving dangersign when at the
same time, he could get more satisfaction from F3 races where he would also
learn much more about the car itself and the laws of the physics. F1 is a
beast, and IMO you shouldn't start hunting from the most dangerous aspect,
you should first master the idea of how it's done in the first place,
because otherwise you could get hurt and frustrated.

  The solutions seems pretty easy to me - if you're behind someone
you're not sure about then don't take the racing line - move off line.
That way you _can't_ hit them.  (Well, OK, if they brake massively early
and move onto the wrong line - but there's nothing you can do about
that kind of driver).

--
Richard G. Clegg     Only the mind is waving
Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York.

www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

The second place car was so astonished at the situation
he apparently 'waited' for me at the Lesmos once I got
back under power.  Unfortunately by that time all hell
had broken loose and I never could get back up with him
(nice sporting gesture though).

Every pass is a gamble, most you have to give up
something to gain the position.  In my case I gave
up entry speed to the Parabolica in order to gain the
position, but once I gained it that lack of corner
entry speed was the very thing that lead to the crash.
My plan was to get the position under power, not
under braking, online racing seldom works out to
plan though.  Sometimes you simply don't have time
to wait behind a car to judge where it is slow and where
it is fast, you are in the middle of a serious race and want
to win.  Other times regardless of what you do the situation
doesn't work out in a nice tidy fashion.  Advice like the
above is easy to give but not always practical to follow.
We are talking about putting a car a lap down in races
that are usually less than ten laps long.  That alone
tells me that I don't want to be lingering behind this
car for any period of time waiting for their next crash
to unfold before my very eyes.  Additionally, there may
not be a straight for a long time to come if at all.  Do
you bide your time?  For how long?  There may not be
another line to pull off on.  What can you realistically do?

I think the point Marko was trying to make is that we
aren't all racing at Monza with nice long and wide straights
you can see all the way down.  At the tighter tracks or the
tracks with elevation changes you can easily come up
on a backmarker with such a profound difference in
rate of speed that you simply don't have time to do
anything other than wonder why they are going so
slow.  At those times you just shrug it off though and
look forward to your next league race where everyone
is closely matched and familiar with one another.

 - George

My philosophy is that you should try to avoid hitting other cars as much
as you possibly can - the ultimate sin is to run into the back of
another car, and I feel really bad if I do it (even if I can't see how I
could have avoided it!).

Personally I'd like to see more slowpokes out there so I can practice
clean overtaking moves on them!  ;-)

I think in my case I'm actually rather better at racing than hotlapping
- I had a great online race at Spa against a lot of other faster
drivers, where I started in 3rd, moved up to 1st due to the first two
spinning out at various points (came through the Masta kink to be
confronted by a wall of smoke due to a spinner - really scary!).

All through the race I'd find that a faster driver would catch up me,
try to make a move, but as I covered the inside line they'd have to back
off and either lose it completely or have to work their way back to me.

The key is: slow in, fast out - as long as you aren't braking *way*
before the normal point - it's much harder for them to overtake you if
you concentrate on getting a fast exit from each corner.  (Oh, and don't
let them through on the inside - make them go the long way round!).

Anyway, I came second in the end: Mark Mercer barged through on the
inside about 5 corners from the end of the last lap and we collided!
Not sure who's fault it was, but the point is I don't believe either of
us was being reckless, so it was a racing accident - no problem with
that!  I'm just annoyed that he stayed on the track and I went off!

I think if you're being lapped you should do it a bit differently - you
don't actually have to move off-line but you probably should let the
faster driver through on the inside - whereas if you're fighting for
position you're entitled to force the guy behind to take the long way
round.

I believe that in 1967 the blue flags were informational only - you
weren't obliged to move over for the faster car, but then again in those
days if you made more than one move to cover your position it was
considered blocking (even if you weren't being lapped).

I don't really see why people complain about backmarkers - when racing
online I like to encounter other cars once in a while - otherwise I
might as well be practising on my own!

Regarding my "theory", I said nothing about staying back 50 metres, I didn't
post any numbers.  I said stay out of his gearbox.  It's easy to pass back
markers without gluing yourself to them.  I'm sure you know exactly what I mean
and we're just wasting time here.

You now say that you will go off the racing line to let the other driver brake
earlier.  This is the complete opposite of your last post, which is what pissed
me off in the first place.  You said: "Now, if we have driver who brakes 50-100
meters before "the hotshoes", then IMO he should use other line than ideal
raceline."  Make up your mind, or this whole discussion is pointless.

Regarding rear-ending someone:  The ONLY reason I responded to your post was
your implying that people who get pissed off when you rear end them have no
respect for other drivers.  You chose not to address that issue at all.  Ramming
is ramming, on T1 or the last lap.  Expect people to *** at you if you take
them out because you didn't or couldn't slow down in time.

I watched your whole race, and it was a good one.  However it's difficult to
judge how well you deal with traffic for three reasons.  First, there was no
traffic, just you and one other car who seemed to be an even match for you in
terms of driving skill and very predictable.  This is not exactly a 5 car pack
heading into the Lesmos at Monza.  Second, there was only one back marker in the
whole race, who moved over very nicely so you and the other Ferrari could go
by.  Third, it's an F3 race, much slower than GP,  you have a lot more time to
adjust your line and braking and stay out of trouble.  Please don't infer from
this that I think F3 races are inferior, I don't.  They can be a lot of fun and
very close.  From my obeservations, however, most on-line races are GP, which is
what I assumed we were discussing.  My mistake.

I agree with you completely, it would be nice if all drivers would practice and
know the braking zones before racing on-line, but in reality it's not likely to
happen.  My point was, learn to recognize the less experienced and compensate
for them.  They're not going to go away, and can actually make races much more
exciting as the leaders have to deal with lapped traffic.  There will always be
accidents you can't avoid.  Some will be the fault of other drivers and some
will be your own.  Just like real racing.  I still don't believe you, me or
anyone else should be making a judgment call as to who should/shouldn't race
on-line, whether they're lost in the braking zones or not.  Lord knows we could
use a lot more racers on VROC.

Happy racing Marko.

            Zog

Don Scurlock
Vancouver,B.C.

a) He spun not too long ago and is getting back up to speed
b) He blew the most recent corner and is now recovering
c) His car is damaged and he is attempting to pull off for a Shift-R
d) He is in an F2/F3 car, you are not
e) He is disorientated/not familiar with the track
f) I really nailed that last corner
g) I'm a demon braker
h) He is driving his own race

I'm afraid racing isn't that cut and dried.  I can think of a few places
in GPL where you simply can't see a car in front of you as you
make your decision where and when to brake.  Additionally there
are often times where GPL isn't showing you all the available
information due to network latency, dropped packets, and
the X front/Y rear car display algorithm.  Network aside, not
everyone is driving with mirrors and even some who are do
not take the time to check them simply because all of their
effort needs to be forward when braking for a corner.  Under
that scenario trying to outbrake on another line will often put
you in the back of another car as they drift across lines towards
the apex.  You can't brake harder, you can't yank the wheel,
you are simply comitted to your line.  Lastly they almost had to
have been driving erratically to begin with else why would they
be so far behind in a short sprint race?

Le Mans drivers have a good knowledge of the capabilites of their
competitors both within classes and outside of them.  The same
cannot be said of online GPL pick-up races.

For a counter example I would point you to the revoking of Hattori's
CART license.  I'm not advocating that new/slow GPLers not race
online, but when the difference in speed becomes too great accidents
are going to happen regardless.  Nearly every series recognizes this
basic point of racing (via steward decisions or 110% rules).

Personally I think more races need to be run with full damage
enabled and shift-R disabled.  Give negative reenforcement a
try and give that old diehard phrase 'to finish first, you must first
finish' some teeth.

 - George

I'm sure you are aware of the fact that when driving a car you balance driving
insanely fast and taking large risks against taking it a bit easier and being
certain of staying on the track. Add other cars to the equation and the
balancing gets even trickier.

You might argue this, but I won't since I'm am certain in my belief on this
point: There are drivers who can drive insanely fast hotlaps but are
significantly less skilled when it comes to making a clean overtaking. In a
race situation, these are the guys who will qualify in pole and then hit the
first car they come up to lap. Those would be your [pure] hotlappers.

Then there are racers. These guys are not churning out world record times.
OTOH they flow through traffic in ways that make it seem like magic and can
drive lap after lap after lap without ever being so close to the edge that
they risk having an accident. Those would be your Racers.

Then, of course, there are those who can do both, depending on the situation.
Those would be, well, just plain depressing. :)

I never said hotlappers can't be good drivers. They certainly are, otherwise
they would not be able to do those hotlaps. I did say that they _might_ not be
good Racers. I did not say they can't be good Racers.

Enough playing with words for today?

Cheers,
    /ft