rec.autos.simulators

Well you have a good point here.

The same happened when Grand Prix 2 went on the market. It raised the bar
REALLY high, and even these days hard-core simracing titles are equally in
many points to it (ex : recent Ubisoft titles,  or even some points in
Papyrus titles).  GPL did the same also.

Now you will agree with me that GPLegends is _THE_ hard-core sim ? Ok ;-)

We need to understand that upcoming titles (there's 10 on the top of my
head) in 1999 will probablynot be as hard-core as GPL. Not because it's not
targeted as.  Im sure TAR is targeted as Hard-core. Maybe a little less for
SportscarGT, but still they are simulators, not arcade titles.  There is
many reasons for that.

Primo, they don't have a Geoff Crammond or a David Kaemmer as employee.
That makes a BIG difference.

Secondo, the budget, or timeframe is not as big as for per example GP3.
During the development they will need to scratch up many points.  Many of
them are there to appeal the arcade market, but MUCH more are for the
hard-core simmers.

Finalto (that's a word? :-D ), the experience might be lacking.  Papyrus is
the reference in simracing titles (much like Jane's for Airsims) so they
have the biggest baggages of titles (just relook at the history of Papyrus
titles, it's incredible).  They know perfectly the market, and aim their
product in that direction.  GPL being the best example of a racing title
marketed for Hard-core simmes ONLY.

-= Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank>
-= NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/
-= SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/
-= Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
-= May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I just hope future sims will *not* try to copy GPL's AI, damage model
or even the graphics.  Those are certainly not its shiny points.
As to the physics, I dunno. Most people seem to confuse car physics
with car behaviour these days and are astouned that a simulated
touring car doesn't feel like the good old 67 GPL cigars. Well, in
that case you'll probably become dissapointed by any of the upcoming
releases.

--Tel

For a proper sim, car physics = car behavior.  That's not to say that other
formats should feel remotely like the cars in GPL.  THEY don't even feel like
each other that much.  Drive the Lotus and then hop in the BRM for a spin.  I
suspect many people will be surprised at how different those big Nascar
stockers are going to feel in N3.  As for the AI and damage model, I think most
of the criticism would have been eliminated by simply allowing a bit more
choice and tunability within GPL's menu system, without resorting to editing
the .ini's.  Given the broader target market for N3, I would guess it'll be
more friendly in these respects.  I personally like the subtlety in GPL's
damage model, but can understand how it might be fun to turn it off now and
then.  And it would be nice to see the cc's lose a few parts after a collision
has left ME with a mono-wheeled Lotus...again.

Steve B.

remove "edy" from address for email

Actually I was referring to stuff like the superstrong suspensions,
wheels that won't come off even after a double salto at max speed,
weird spins or the undestructable chassis (werent they made of
aluminium back then?). Even though the option says so, that's hardly a
realistic damage model and it really isn't something that could be
tweaked with a few additional settings here and there, that's IMO a
vital part of the simulation. And btw, you can play around with the
inis as much as you want this won't cure the ai from following their
pre-scripted ways causing the same start pile up over and over again
if you don't react.
So in conclusion car physics are great - for what they're trying to
simulate that is - but for any future sims I'd expect a bit more than
that.

--Tel

Tel what level are u playing GPL on. the damage model is superb, u only
have to touch some things very lightly to have your suspension slightly
damaged making it very hard or even impossible to drive, and the wheels
come off very easily when u hit something.
Have u altered your ini files for AI because this is probably why u are
getting pile ups, faster cars starting behind slower 1's etc.
U really shouldn't bother messing with them, and just have fun trying to
beat the guys that race at your speed and get great satisfaction out of
that, and just watch the faster guys drive away ,dreaming that in a
couple of months u will be beating them too .
I have all 19 cars on and hardly get caught up in any pile ups unless
caused by myself, yes occasionally there are pile ups caused by the AI
but then that just shows what great Ai drivers they are because even the
best have bad days. we all see pile ups in real racing.
I have saved start positions for many races and so started the same race
from the same place many times ,and the starts can be very different,
far from scripted, yes usually u can pick out 1 car which is always a
little slow but definitely not scripted.
And as for driving in amongst the AI in races they are incredible , and
it is very hard to tell the difference between them and real drivers.
In conclusion GPL has by far the best Damage model and AI of any sim to
date and I think it will be a little while b4 they are improved.
And indeed the things u are trying to knock ,AI physics and graphics are
(indeed by any1 who has played it long enough) the "shiny points".

--
Vince Fisher

    I don't seem to have any trouble shearing the suspension and wheels off my
Lotus.  Perhaps you're not trying hard enough :-)  I can send you a replay of
both my fronts disappearing vertically out of sight at Eau Rouge!  I think they
may have landed over at the Nurburgring.  Let me know if you see 'em lying
around.
    As for tweaking the tub, that's a tough one.  It would require more
discrete elements in the physics model, requiring yet more from our
already-maxed-out CPU's.  Sure it'd be more realistic, which is always nice,
but I can live with the current model's compromises for now.
    I get annoyed with the AI crashing into me too, on occasion.  Usually,
however, a quick look at the replay reveals the true culprit!  Guess who.  They
do tend to be less "aware" on starts, but no more so than some of the morons
I've raced with in real life.  And I still have the scars to prove that one. So
when I'm yelling at Hulme to keep that dog-slow Brabham away from me, I don't
pin it on bad AI, just bad I.  Nothing artificial about that!

Cheers,

Steve B.

remove "edy" from address for email

Dan
http://www.smokinhq.com

8-)

*Peter*   #:-)

If you go to the grid and then bailout, you can "save the game" (i.e. the
grid starting positions, the AI driver team assignments, field size, and the
marquee that you were driving at the time). When you later come back to that
particular track, GPL will ask you if you want to restore the saved game. If
you answer yes, you'll be dropped onto the grid in your earned qualifying
position.

The "saved game" files that GPL creates are stored in your players\Doe__John
folder with an extension of .SVG. I make a point of exiting out of GPL after
qualifying if I find myself in an interesting new position on the grid. I
copy the newly created SVG file to a saved game archive folder. I then
rename the copy something descriptive like "watglen (Ferr 12 in 20).svg".
Then later if I decide I'd like to race the Ferrari at The Glen from the
12th position on the grid, I just copy "watglen (Ferr 12 in 20).svg" to the
players\Doe__John folder, rename it "watglen.svg" and away I go.

Remember that even if you've changed cars, you'll find yourself in the
marquee in which you qualified. By the way, you CAN make changes to your
setup by hitting Pause once the screen just before the grid appears. Jump in
and make your setup changes, and then click the green light to be dropped on
the grid with the field there waiting for you.

P.S. GPL deletes the SVG file for any given track when 1) you or the AI
complete a race at that track or 2) you quit a race and respond No when
asked if you want to "save the game" (or whatever the verbiage is they use,
I can't recall).

Hi all,

In my opinion, if GPL's physics receive so much praise, it all comes
from the fact that the reactions of the car are believable.  I mean,
there aren't many things happening that can't be explained by true
life physics.  As an example, I still can't figure out how I can give
full throttle to my car in ICR2 and still be unable to get a decent
wheelspin.  Or how come the motor's revs go from 0 to 13000 instantly
when I give it full throttle in MGPRS2.  Or how about that strange
wheelspin in N2...  These are only a few points that remind you
everytime that you're not racing a real car.  I didn't find much
things to complain about in GPL.  It just _feels_ right.  That's what
I look for in a sim.

I'm not saying it's perfect tho, it still has its limitations, but
they are less obvious IMHO than in any other sims available at present
time.  I bet you there's more to come in future releases.  I wish the
next surprise would come from another software developer than Papy...
We know they're good, but we need some competition to keep them on
their toes!

A. Renault

This is indeed different to my observation, maybe it's track
dependant? Try Silverstone then...

Graphics??? you must be kidding. It's certainly not *that* important
but I have seen better things than that poor attempt on creating the
trackside scenerie a long time ago. Have you ever noticed the 'tree'
rows in Monza, or maybe the fences at the Nurburgring? What about the
few spectators here and there? That's just ugly. Tracks and cars are
nicely modeled however.

--Tel

Or how come the motor's revs go from 0 to 13000 instantly

Not in a real racing car? I haven't redlined a real F1 car but given that in
gear they hit the redline in about 0.5secs in all the first 4 gears I can
believe that in neutral it would be virtually instant.

Dean