rec.autos.simulators

Yeah, right, from what?

Enough to make it interesting, yes, there are more passes in Indy cars,
so what!
Most of the tracks are smaller and ovals, and all the cars are very
evenly matched, thats why there is more passing. The fact there there are
not as many passes in F1 doesn't make it any less of a spectacle, in fact
the passes are usually a lot more spectacular due to the nature of the
tracks.

Wow, you know what, in a minute your going to impress the hell outa me
with all those fancy phrases you come out with, I don't think!

Rear end automated spin problem? Well I've had this program since it was
released, and have played the hell out of it, and I have never come
across this one? I have, however, come across plenty of people who can't
control the car when it goes into a spin, are you one of those people? Is
that why you have to critisize? because its too hard for you? Never mind,
you stick to one of those "easy" sims.

Oh please, why the hell do I want to replay a whole race, taking anything
up to two hours to watch?
F1 is about driving around assorted track, at speed, consistently, that
means each lap, near as damn it, should be driven as fast and as closely
as the last lap. Inconsistency is not a help in F1.
If you need to analyze your driving, how you are braking, cornering,
check out the telemetry, etc, there is no reason why it can't be done
using one lap, or a few laps saved as hotlaps.
Your not gonna tell me you sit and watch replays of whole races are you?
Jesus, get a life.

Insults, what insults? are you reading the same message?

Yeah, right, like your a complete expert, (on B*llsh*t maybe).

Exactly, he knows a hell of a lot more about driving sims than ANYONE on
this ng.
And I for one, wouldn't question his decision to leave out a few things
and have the game as it is now, rather than bow to pressure, make a hash
of it and end up with game that has all the features, but drives like a
pile of junk.

But when your driving a computer sim, your NOT a real driver!!!
You never heard of using your imagination? or is that too taxing for you?

I put in enough time to evaluate if they were worth buying, IMO they were
not.
I do not claim to be an expert on any sim, even GP2.

They are.

So to sum up, were agreed GP2 is  still great, despite its obvious
shortcomings.
So what are you whining about?

Peter  #:?)  Please note my real e-mail address below,

Yep, got it in one.

Peter  #:?)  Please note my real e-mail address below,

The debate is whatever those taking part in the debate decide it is.

As GP2/F1 are track and road courses, and Indycar &  NASCAR are oval
courses, BOTH!

I'll say whatever the hell I like, If you don't like it, Tough Sh*t.
If you learned to read you might actually realise that I do like oval
track racing, (real Indycar & NASCAR racing & computer simulated.)

Fine, whatever, (blah, blah, blah).

Peter  #:?)  Please note my real e-mail address below,

Oh dear, someone else who cannot read?
The UK pc press.

America is half of the world now is it?
The reason F1 gets a worldwide audiance is because its a worldwide sport,
17 races in 16 different countries (two in Italy), and drivers from 11
different countries at the start of the 1997 season.
Indy car & NASCAR racing is primarily raced in the states, I'm not sure
of the drivers for this season, but I would hesitate and take a guess
that most of them are from the US?
Do you not see a difference here?

What? Where the hell do you get your info from? Hypothesis?
Are you an American by any chance?
The days when the UK only had three or four channels of tv are well and
truly over.
With Sat & cable tv we have as many channels as anybody else, if not more?

There couldn't be another reason for "other countries" not watching
American based motor sport, could there?
Like the fact that we might not be interested, no, obviously it couldn't
be that!
We are interested in Global sports, but were not too interested in North
American championships, you know the sort of thing....."World series"
(played by Americans, Based in America).
Thats not really worldwide or global in my book.

Not so, true there is LESS passing for position than in indy & nascar,
but they are totally different sports.
Smaller tracks, more evenly matched cars, pace car and yellow flags used
more often, etc, etc.
And I agree that generally, the first few cars, say in the top 5 will not
change too often by passing manoeuvre. But there are more than 5 cars in
a F1 race, and passing for position does happen regularly enough to keep
me interested.

No, I have never raced in anything other than Karts a few times, for fun.
And no, I watch F1, Indy cars, NASCARs, Karting, Rallying, Touring car
racing, etc, quite a lot on tv, I enjoy watching ALL motor sports.

However, when it comes to driving computer simulators, (which is what
this ng is supposed to be about, Remember?) I do prefer driving F1,
rather than ovals. But that does not mean I do not like ovals, Quite the
contrary, I DO like ovals, just as i like rallying, karting, etc, just
not as much as F1, simple really!!!!

Yeah, right, whatever, Yaaawwwnnnnn........Next please.

Peter  #:?)  Please note my real e-mail address below,

Correct.

Peter  #:?)  Please note my real e-mail address below,

Randy

Hmmmm,... I can tell the more I read your statments the more I
understand that you really
have not experimented or studied other sims and that brings me to
understand your comments
about GP2 in that you have'nt really tried anything else so what real
ground do you have to stand
on when upholding GP2's "so-called" achievments? In other words: If
you've only played GP2 and nothing
else then of course your going to think its an achievement. When in fact
if you have researched past sims
you'll understand that there is much more to be expected for our money
with newly develop racing sims.
Please dont try to sound like you know what your talking about when you
"plainly" havent experimented with any other sims on the market. It only
makes people question your intelligence. Why reply?!

The what? It seems we are getting off the subjects of achievements. Im
sorry but I dont
understand what you mean.

Your "praise" for GP2 is quite embarrasing, What type of argument is
this that anyone would consider
an achievement. You must stop this drivel, its only revealing that this
sim has no balls!
You have to understand that creating a "user" friendly access in these
programs alows the programmers
themselves to take advantage of its use too, I dont think it was
intended for the public. If you
really think Microprse designed GP2 to be "hacked" easier than I must
end our debate here, because
I do not have time for stupidity.

Explain "second" (whats "first" IYO) Explain "biggest" How are you
speaking for everyone else
that owns GP2. I see no other opinions of achievement here and anyone is
welcome to state what
type of "achievements" they think GP2 has acomplished.

Well it all comes down to it here. Your stating that your an F1 fan and
wouldnt settle for
anything other. This is biased and therefore enables anyone to
understand why you try to portray
GP2 as an "achievement." You have acomplished one thing- That no matter
what type of F1 fan you are
it holds NO relevance to the quality of GP2 as a sim and I challenge
anyone to prove otherwise.
This ends my debate and this is where I have made my point. A "wasted"
breath to someone who has not experienced racing sims to a respectable
level of debate and is "blinded" by biasness.

I take it with this statement you know him personally.(IMO) Geoff
wouldnt dare stick his nose in this newsgroup
with a reply! It would be burned completely off! That has to tell you
something about his "so-called" "achievement".
Look at how other sim programmers show up here frequently to show their
support and offer "tech" help.
If they  distributed it "incomplete" they wouldnt be here either, but
they take pride in their work and believe in it and will soon make more
money off of me for their quality sims in the future. Geoff Crammond on
the other hand is a Putz and doesnt have the "balls" to show up at the
only newsgroup in the world that reviews and criticizes racing
simulators. I arrest my case.

(anytime) David Gary

Oh dear, one thing at a time. Can't quote out more than 1 reply, so
I'll paraphrase Randy Magruder & Fernando Assis' articles.

Fernando Assis made some points:
1. There are AI problems: aggressive backmarkers....
This could be a problem. the fact is that I only race on Ace & Pro level, and I'm
not yet quick enough that I've encountered that many backmarkers. Those that I have
seemed OK, maybe you've had some unusual experiences.

2. Car breakage/sand trap escape unreality...
Correct, its too difficult to break the car and too easy to get out of the kitty
litter. I've edited the first parameter using Slobodan Blanus' (sic) editor, the
second parameter stays, but realise that in reality people do get out of the sand by
keeping rolling, and if you really want to get trapped then just stay there:->

3. We should criticise constructively..
Also correct, but what I'm objecting to is the across-the-board slating of GP2: "GP2
is beta", "MPS should give us our money back" etc. I'm not opposed to wish-lists for
the future, but people must realise that MPS does not owe them anything than what
they promise on the GP2 pack, if you thought it contained more then you were fooling
yourself. Lets look at some of the `missing' items:

NETWORK PLAY: this is a big job in a sim like GP2, which updates so many parameters
and has to manage their interdependence. It will be there in the future, I can wait.

WET WEATHER: ever seen how much tyre smoke slows doen the game? Imagine what water
spray would do! Sorry, can't have SVGA and wet weather at the same time just yet.

Then Randy Magruder made some points:
1. Track problems - missing details, can't take corners fast enough etc
Your ommissions take the concept of `attention to detail' to new heights. The Shell
signs I can do without, they're flat anyway, and change from year to year. I do miss
certain run-off areas, like the one at Monaco where Damon parked his car last year.
There might be a good reason wny the track is more bounded than in reality... I
dunno.

Missing bumps and inclines can get subjective - I have no problem with the incline
at Interlagos, its no cliff face but I can't see a difference from in-car video
playback. The bump at Monaco is a bit of a wimp-out, but then maybe the thing is due
to be steamrollered/resurfaced anyway. That is a public road and must be subject to
normal maintenance.

What about taking corners at slower speeds? Better check your setup. If the ccars
are doing it then there's a problem. I'd like solid references please.

And the more I read your replies the more I start to realise that you
probably don't enjoy many things in life, not just GP2.

In plain english: when I wrote "inside view car setups" I was referring to the fact
that MPS consulted with actual F1 teams to design their setup system, that's what
makes it so realistic. People who read my post seemed to think that I was referring
to the***pit graphic, which is one of the few let-downs in the game.

Not that they *designed* it to be hacked, but that they released a transparent prog
structure. Neither you or I know in what form it was easiest for them to develop.

A fine statement from someone who can't tell the difference between the concept of
`inside-view car setup' and `cockpit graphic'.

None of that's in my opinion its a MPS press release, audited and checked, black 'n
white, simple math. I don't know what's first, but I'm 99.99% sure its not
Indycars/Nascars/anycars. Can't you make the link between `second biggest worldwide'
and the concept of achievement? Then I can't make it for you.

Note: I never set myself up as a great racing sim expert, I began this debate in
response to the mindless across-the-board slating of GP2. I don't have to be an an
expert in other games because none of my points have been comparative - and neither
have yours, even though you're clearly a widely-crashed simracer. If you're not
making comparisons it says more than if I'm not.

Reviews, criticises yes, there is also a largeweight of shite flung around this NG.
Geoff may well lurk here - we would never know anyway. You don't have to post to
get info/feedback. And I'm sure he knows how to tell the difference between
valuable comment on his work and hysterical ranting.

And I rest mine.

-john
 cape town
 sa

I guess that explains the difficulty Mr. V had in transitioning to F1 last
year.  I'm into both types of racing and I don't see how you can even try
to compare them.  It's like saying who's a better long jumper? Ted Williams
or Michael Jordan?

It is when it comes to F1 racing. They race entirely on the Eastern
hemisphere.

The only difference I get from the sound of your statements are that you
really
have no clue what my point was. Your "guess" taking implies that you are
asking
for an answer instead of continuing to have anything else to say on your
behalf.

 Not all the countries that televise F1 televise Indycar or Nascar. I
wasnt
stating that happened strictly in the UK
.

Bla, Bla, Bla

What happened to the fact that you had anything to say about my original
post.
There is obviously nothing left for you to talk about the way your mind
wanders
and you mouth babbles.

Now you are repeating me.

Totally? How can open wheel road circuit cars be totally different. You
need
to fish through your Webster's dictionary sometime and make sure you
mean what you say.
It only adds to your incompetince to debate anything besides the issue
at hand and you really
cant even pull that off..

In general everything you mention  happens in all of motorsports. You
still
are getting way off the subject and therefore have no replies are
answers to my original post.
you continue to babble. Are you talking to yourself. Because unless you
have something worth
listening to, I arrest my case about the misconcepted quality of GP2.

Well keep watching instead of tring to be an anyalist, it will protect
your reputation.

Your the one who simply has nothing else to contribute to this debate
which is an ebarrasment
to anything of importance about GP2

 I do prefer driving F1,

Now you contradicting yourself. You said:"One thing I would not settle
for is NASCAR or Indycar".
These are oval racing cars. You like ovals yet you would not "settle"
for Nascar or Indycar?.
It sounds like your having a conversation with yourself and Im just a
bystander telling you how stupid you look. As far as the debate goes,
its over.

Next person you cant prove your point with?

"Your opinions are not relavant to the issue of your mental capacity,
but rather they are dead horses that are not, NOT to be flogged. My
purpose here to is to clearly demonstrate to all concerned that you are
indeed insane. Unfortunately I must demonstrate to you the fact that you
are not in touch with really and you must learn to function in the
modern world of today. Functioning is the process whereby decent people
of society
interly link with one another for the sole purpose of keeping the modern
world a safe place for all in which to live. If you get my drift!  

(the one and only) -David Gary-

So all the Ex F1 drivers, who have switched to Indycars and have done
rather well, are not hard data?
You cannot say the reverse is true?

Peter  #:?)  Please note my real e-mail address below,

-DG-

Randy

JOH

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
When everything else failed, we can still become im-
mortal by making an enormous blunder....

                             John Kenneth Galbraith
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Indeed, who could possible even consider releasing a sim these days
without realistic wheel spin and locking..... ;-)

Each sim concentrates on specific aspects. None of them are perfect in
every respect. GP2 may not meet your specific requirements, but it does
meet the requirements of very many sim fanatics (including those who have
a lot more experience and knowledge of sims than yourself ;-)

Enjoy the best bits about each sim and stop this relentless harking on
about the bits that don't meet your oh so perfect standards.

Looking in the mirror again, David?

If you didn't shoot down in flames anyone who dared voice an opinion that
disagreed with your own, you might see many more.

As it is, most GP2 fans are too busy enjoying the sim to bother arguing
with a brick wall.

Mirror, mirror, on the wall,
Who is the most blinded of them all?

Indeed, do look. Jim is the only one to show regularly (thanks, Jim!).
Others have in the past only to give up because of people constantly
flaming them. If you want programmers to take part in the group, stop
being so ***y negative all the time.

Cheers,
Richard