rec.autos.simulators

Don't you find it frustrating that most sims on the market today generally lack
the grip of the real thing.  The car just slices around like ice skating.

I don't find it frustrating, because I think that it is actually realistic.
If you could feel the g-forces of the car in the simulator, I think that the
tire grip would be quite realistic, and that you would probably be scared
shitless by how fast you are going and the unbelievable forces involved.  If
you could actually feel how fast you are accelerating and turning, like in a
real car, then the grip would seem realistic.  It's hard to discern the
forces involved when you're sitting in front of a desk watching computer
pixels flash by.  I think the frustrating thing is just that -- that there
is no g-force simulation so unless it's a good sim (gpl :-)  ), or until we
get g-force simulation, it's hard to tell just when you're going to lose
grip.

Brook

Hmm my brother's 5 liter mustang was very tail happy, with an over exuberant
stomp on the gas pedal.  I'd imagine race cars with better power to weight
ratio's would be even more so.  However I have no experience in real race cars

Martyn_D

yes but in that car you can feel when the tires are going to lose grip.
That's my point.  lifelike feedback.  Not like computers, no real feedback.
Happy racing!

Brook

cars

well true..

forcefeedback i guess is yer answer, dunno if there are any seats that can help
in the feedback area either

Martyn_D

I don't think that's true.  If there wasn't enough grip, laptimes would be
unrealistically high.  Most sims seem to have laptimes that are too low- for
the best drivers, anyway.

I recently started driving a Late Model stock car and feel that GPL is very
close to the real thing if you make the gears a little taller to reduce the
power and engine braking.  I've also used the converter for N2 tracks to GPL
so I could run ovals, Hickory being my favorite 'cause that's similar to the
local track I drive at.  Late Models don't run radial tires and slide around
kind'a easily.  I've also driven a WC car at one of those driver experiance
programs a few times and they have a lot of grip and power but seem to be
less forgiving when it breaks loose.  It's all kind'a like ice skating.  The
closer you get to the edge, the more it slides around.  Hopefully NASCAR4
will do a good job of modeling the grip.

Please don't say "most sims" by only including MGPRS2.  It's clearly not
representative of modern F1 racing.  So what are the other ones?

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.WeRace.net
-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

There is the crux I guess. If developers would put in the "right" sort of
grip, people would start doing unrealisticly fast times, just because the
physics are by definition an approximation and the fear of damage/injury is
not present. So I guess grip is the easiest thing to fudge to keep things in
check.

Jan.
=---

I disagree... there's plenty of grip to be had in MGPRS2. My main gripe with
the game is the AI having traction control.

On the other hand I agree with Frank MGPRS2 does not represent the state of
the art in racing simulations, far from it.

Jan.
=---

I think that the grip in most sims is higher than in real life. But the problem
seems to be that it's a bit of all or nothing even at relatively low speeds.
There is too little warning before the tires completely let go in a low to
moderate speed turn. I could understand this happening in a hispeed turn at 150
MPH +, things would tend to happen rather quickly. But , in most sims,
including GPL, the tires let go sometimes completely, without even a squeal
even at moderate speeds ( i.e. less than 60 MPH )
in a turn which at least visually does not feel dangerous at that speed.
Admittedly you dont have any sense of the g-forces for feedback, but it still
does not feel quite right sometimes, and the visuals should be made to match up
with your visual perception of speed relative to reality, and they sometimes
dont. You learn to adjust to it, but I think that there needs to be some
tweaking done to insure that what you see on the screen mimics what you
experience in real life. Cars are routinely made to slide under control in real
racing, in fact I can more easily powerslide my ATV or Go cart on asphalt than
I can any of the cars in any sims. There is a definite lack of tire adhesion
progressiveness in sims. It does feel like you are sliding on ice sometimes
even when you are not
pushing to your personal limit. We all judge a sims accuracy subjectively,
based upon whether it "feels" like what we would expect to happen in real
life,extrapolating from our personal experiences with actual cars. Sometimes It
seems that we are too willing to assume that a demanding sim must be accurate
because it is difficult, but I have played alot of arcadish racers that I could
barely exceed 30 MPH on a straightaway without crashing ( i.e. Gran Prix Racing
for the Nintendo 64). And yet those people who love that game claim that it is
hard to steer the cars because it is so realistic. Sometimes, even in the best
of sims, the shortcoming lies in the game and not with the player. It is quite
possible to make a sim that is more demanding than reality.

Just based on how fast you can get around a track in GPL, I think the
simulation is pretty accurate.
I find that I drive the best in the sim, when I am focused on the scene so
much that I almost forget that its a simulation. If your hardware gets you
to the higher resolutions and performs well that helps too of course.

Jim

I have a hard time believing that this is true for anything resembling a
"real" champion. It would shatter my preconceptions to learn that they
bravely force themselves from the safety of their trailers with nagging
doubts about their abilities to control the car, let alone control it well
enough better than the next guy in order to win. In the back of my simple
mind, I was certain that they are where they are not because they are more
brave and more foolhardy than I, but because they have a keener sense of a
car's grip at the limit.

Also, by way of anecdotal proof, some of my PB's were made in a race --
where the concern of wiping out weighs very heavily -- not hotlapping alone
in practice, where I care only about riding the limit at the next corner. We
can theorize all we want, and we might even find that you're right, but I
have a difficult time accepting your reasoning.

Michael.