rec.autos.simulators

by **'John' Joao Sil** » Thu, 19 Jun 1997 04:00:00

Has anyone heard if Sierra plans to support 3Dfx or D3D acceleration
in their upcoming SODA Off-Road Racing sim?

I've seen mentions of Rendition support in this title but nothing
definite has been mentioned, and a look through the Sierra web site
did not reveal anything either.

I certainly hope they will take a step forward and start supporting
other 3D cards besides their own slower 3D accelerator.

Looking forward to this title but hoping they'll do the right thing
and give us a D3D or 3dfx version.

Cheers.

--John
--
Note: my real e-mail address is below. Delete the asterisks.
------------------------------+--------------------------

Seattle, Washington USA. | http://www.racesimcentral.net/~jsilva

by **Simproje** » Thu, 19 Jun 1997 04:00:00

Hi John,

For a preliminary review, have a look at SRN:

http://members.aol.com/simnews

Marc

by **J. Sil** » Fri, 20 Jun 1997 04:00:00

>Hi John,

>For a preliminary review, have a look at SRN:

>http://members.aol.com/simnews

>Marc

Wow! nice preview of this upcoming sim on your site Marc, keep up the
good work.

This looks like a very fun game especially the track editor will
be a big plus, and multiplayer offroad racing sounds pretty promising,
having watched one of the SODA races on ESPN2 not too long ago I must say
that I would enjoy rubbing fenders with other racers over the Internet.

I am however, disappointed that it seems Sierra will only be supporting the
Rendition3D family of cards in this product so once again we
Voodoo owners will still have to keep waiting for a real 3dfx supported
racing sim.

I'll have to wait until after it's release to hear how well it would
run on my P166 without a Rendition card, but I still keep wishing Sierra
would face reality and start supporting D3D or 3dfx in it's products,
maybe even retrofit D3D/3dfx versions of ICR2 and Nascar2 ;-)

I'm starting to think that Sierra is supporting only Rendition3D
acceleration in its products due to the conflict of interest that they sell
a Rendition3D video card.

No 3dfx support might just have cost them my purchase of SODA Racing unless
the non-Rendition reviews of it change my mind.

Let's just hope they don't make this mistake with Grand Prix Legends, if
they pull the 3dfx support in that tiltle I really *will* be mad, this
sim is at the top of my list of titles to preorder and I look forward to
racing wheel to wheel at 30 FPS eagerly.

Cheers.

--John (fan of GP2, ICR2, N2, NFS, NQRally, Stunts, TD2 etc.)
--
Note: my real e-mail address is below. Delete the asterisks.
------------------------------+--------------------------

Seattle, Washington USA. | http://www.cool.com/~jsilva

by **SimRaci** » Fri, 20 Jun 1997 04:00:00

Subject: Re: SODA Off-Road Racing 3Dfx or D3D support?

Date: 19 Jun 1997 00:25:10 GMT

>Wow! nice preview of this upcoming sim on your site Marc, keep up the
>good work.

Thanks John!! =)

Yes, it is fun!! The track editor is also a very cool addition, as
well as multiplayer...Even though esentially classed as an arcade game,
it should appeal to a few die hard simmers.

SODA is Direct-X compatible, so you should have any problems running
the game.

I also tried it on a non-Renditon 133 w/ Diamond Stealth-v64 2Mb DRAM,
and the game performed very nicely. This was even before the included
Direct-X3 drivers were installed!! I'll be going over the game over
the next few weeks, and report my findings.

Not sure, but very possible...a little too early to tell, but 3dfx
hasn't yet been ruled out as a possibilty. I believe Papyrus is still
looking into all the available 3D platforms to see which best shows
off their products.

Yes, it's too soon to tell...we should know more over the next few
months.

Well I must say, that of all the games I've seen (in pre-release form),
SODA is one of the best performing, and looks very close to being
finished. I can't comment on AI (and a few other items), because these
areas are still under development. However, if their AI-etc. look as
good as what I see here, we're in for a hellava' game...and if this is
an indication of future Papyrus products, then we'll all be sitting
pretty. =)

Cheers!

Marc

Marc J. Nelson
Sim Racing News - USA
http://members.aol.com/simnews

by **Jim Sokolof** » Fri, 20 Jun 1997 04:00:00

> SODA is Direct-X compatible, so you should have any problems running
> the game.

That's an interesting Freudian (Gates-ian?) slip...

---Jim

by **Doug152** » Sat, 21 Jun 1997 04:00:00

>I am however, disappointed that it seems Sierra will only be supporting
the
>Rendition3D family of cards in this product so once again we
>Voodoo owners will still have to keep waiting for a real 3dfx supported
>racing sim.
>I'll have to wait until after it's release to hear how well it would
>run on my P166 without a Rendition card, but I still keep wishing Sierra
>would face reality and start supporting D3D or 3dfx in it's products,
>maybe even retrofit D3D/3dfx versions of ICR2 and Nascar2 ;-)

If you're really a fan of serious racing sims, then the Verite is your
only option right now, just as the Voodoo is the only option for
console-style games. Why not just get a Verite, instead of waiting for a
vaporware 3DFX N2 patch?

Why is this a conflict of interest? How is it unethical for a software
company to produce hardware? Electronic Arts is investing heavily in
3DFX, according to SEC filings. Is that a conflict of interest?

Lack of 3DFX support in Nascar 2 hardly seems to have been a "mistake";
it's one of the top-selling games and best-reviewed games of the year.

by **Simproje** » Sun, 22 Jun 1997 04:00:00

ooops! =P

Marc

by **John n** » Mon, 23 Jun 1997 04:00:00

>>I am however, disappointed that it seems Sierra will only be supporting
>the
>>Rendition3D family of cards in this product so once again we
>>Voodoo owners will still have to keep waiting for a real 3dfx supported
>>racing sim.

>>I'll have to wait until after it's release to hear how well it would
>>run on my P166 without a Rendition card, but I still keep wishing Sierra
>>would face reality and start supporting D3D or 3dfx in it's products,
>>maybe even retrofit D3D/3dfx versions of ICR2 and Nascar2 ;-)

>If you're really a fan of serious racing sims, then the Verite is your
>only option right now, just as the Voodoo is the only option for
>console-style games. Why not just get a Verite, instead of waiting for a
>vaporware 3DFX N2 patch?

Why? $170 - 200 to play the only two games not supported by 3Dfx?
That's absurd! You know, I *REALLY* wanted to get a Rendition
based board to play Indycar, but have you looked at the support
this chipset is getting from other game software manufacturers?
None. If you don't believe me, look at independent Rendition web
sites; even they aren't exactly optimistic about it's future!!!!!! These
people are almost begging software companies to support Rendition.
If that's not enough, look at Rendition's list of games supporting
it's chipset. Hasn't changed in months.

Why is the Verite architecture better for sims than 3Dfx (if this is
what you're implying)? If anyone can give me explicit, precise
technical reasons why Indycar or Nascar cannot run in Direct3D
or 3Dfx native, I'm all ears... OTOH, I can think of a few marketing
reasons why Sierra sticks with Redition only.

So what if Sierra thinks Rendition is better than 3Dfx. What
about Direct3D? Why can't Sierra write Indycar in THAT
environment? They have a Win95 version already. Is Indycar's
3D infrastructure so radically different from Direct3D that conversion
is impossible??? Other 3D software such as Motoracer seems
to cope with Direct3D OK.

1. Sierra sells IndyCar or Nascar
2. To get IndyCar or Nascar accelerated -> only Rendition works
3. Oh, by the way, Sierra sells Rendition based video cards

What am I missing here?

"conflict of interest" may be OK in meaning, but doesn't quite hit the mark.
How about "corner the market in ***" sound instead? Why did
Sierra (used to be just a software company) start getting into the video
card business? Do they think they're Microsoft?

Basically, I'll continue to play IndyCar II in SVGA until I can pick one
up in a bargin bin for $50 or until Sierra supports 3Dfx / Direct3D. The
price drop on current Rendition boards will inevitably happen
when Rendition puts out it's new chipset later this year and happen
due to computer market forces in general.

I'm sorry, but I cannot draw any other conclusion to why Sierra doesn't
support 3Dfx or at least Direct3D (heck, even OpenGL). I'm normally
ambivalent about Sierra, and I haven't bought a 3D card (yet), but this
lack of choice in 3D acceleration on one of the best car sim(s) on
earth really stinks.

- Show quoted text -

by **Eric T. Busc** » Mon, 23 Jun 1997 04:00:00

Um... Hello? Sierra does support the 3Dfx cards as well as Direct3D. It
just so happens that the current Papyrus sims do not (SODA's 3D future may
still be undeciced, but Grand Prix Legends should run on both Rendition and
3Dfx cards, most likely through Direct3D). As a matter of fact,
***gladiators has a Native Voodoo GLide version and the Rendtion cards
settle for the Direct3D version. The version of A-10 Tank Killer bundled
with the Sierra card also uses Direct3D. Sierra has also stated that both
cards will be supported in future releases.

--

http://www.racesimcentral.net/

by **Jim Sokolo** » Tue, 24 Jun 1997 04:00:00

>Why is the Verite architecture better for sims than 3Dfx (if this is
>what you're implying)? If anyone can give me explicit, precise
>technical reasons why Indycar or Nascar cannot run in Direct3D
>or 3Dfx native, I'm all ears... OTOH, I can think of a few marketing
>reasons why Sierra sticks with Redition only.

by **John n** » Tue, 24 Jun 1997 04:00:00

In my original post, I was referring to Indycar II, Nascar II, and SODA only.
Sorry if the post was ambiguous about this point.

I figured Sierra had at least one Direct3D in their list of software, as it's
large.

I still stand by my original request to Sierra for at least making SODA 3Dfx
or Direct3D compatible, if they can't make Indycar II the same for scheduling
or financial reasons.

by **Dirtb** » Tue, 24 Jun 1997 04:00:00

>Perhaps you'd be willing to think about the conclusion that Papyrus
>can't justify (with additional unit sales) the costs of porting their
>ICR2/N2 graphics pipeline to 3Dfx. Not a technical problem mind you,
>but a resource-allocation and business problem.

I suppose you're bound by Sierra to do the Verite', and not the 3DFX?
If not, I'd say do 3DFX only.

Although I do have both cards, the 3DFX flat out spanks the Verite'
card. It is very noticable on games from the Sierra bundle that run
on both cards -like ***Gladiators.

Another question (don't know if you'd know this or not)...
Did 3DFX themselves do some of the first 3DFX ports, like Descent?
I'm sure they'd like to see the Papyrus sims running on their card.

Right now (to me), your sims are the only reason for owning a Verite'
card. I'd love to be able to run NASCAR Racing 2 on 3DFX, and yank
the Screamin' 3D in favor of something like a Millenium.

--

by **Eric T. Busc** » Tue, 24 Jun 1997 04:00:00

Not the best example since ***gladiators has a Voodoo Native Glide
version and the Rendition runs the Direct3D version. With the current
version of Direct3D, the Rendition card's use of DMA doesn't buy any speed
increases. I still agree the Voodoo cards are superior, but not to the
degree that you suggest.

--

http://www.racesimcentral.net/

by **J. Sil** » Tue, 24 Jun 1997 04:00:00

>If you're really a fan of serious racing sims, then the Verite is your
>only option right now, just as the Voodoo is the only option for
>console-style games. Why not just get a Verite, instead of waiting for a
>vaporware 3DFX N2 patch?

I already have a Matrox Millenium for my 2D video card needs and a Monster 3D
for my 3D needs, adding a Rendition card would mean having to sacrifice the
fast Win95 and DOS speed of my Matrox. Don't think I didn't consider it :-)
ICR2 Rendition version looks amazing and almost made me buy a Rendition Card.

Well, I never said it was unethical only that supporting their own product
does not have to extend to NOT supporting competing 3D card products.
I saw posts on the c.s.i.p.g.sports by Ken Williams head of Sierra saying
they would be supporting 3dfx or D3D in their future games and not just
Rendition 3D support, and so far this promise has not come true as far as
I can tell. As a 3dfx owner I am hoping he will deliver on his promise.

As a very satisfied owner of Nascar2, I'll have to agree with you that
N2 is a terrific sim, BUT I bought it when it was released at around X-Mas
time, before 3dfx had made their mark as the leading 3D chipset in the 3D
accelerator market, and before I had purchased a 3dfx card. I'm sure I'm
not the only one in this situation, as the popularity and sales of Voodoo
based cards and other 3D cards that support D3D have grown in the last few
months due to the drop in prices for these cards.

If Sierra releases titles this year or at X-mas time WITHOUT D3D or 3dfx
support, it's going to cost them many sales from typical race simmers like
me who have made the move to fast 3D cards like Voodoo and are not going to
be happy running the slower and plainer versions of titles like N2 when
they know that Sierra has included an enhanced Rendition 3D version but
decided not to port it to other popular 3D cards because they compete with
it's own 3D video card.

I have nothing against Sierra putting out enhanced Rendition versions,
by all means they should support their own product, but this should not
preclude them from supporting other widely supported 3D cards, at least
if they expect the owners of these cards to purchase their products.

Cheers.

--John (who is looking forward to SODA Offroad Racing and hoping Sierra will
wake up and see all the extra sales 3dfx support will give them.)
--
Note: my real e-mail address is below. Delete the asterisks.
------------------------------+--------------------------

Seattle, Washington USA. | http://www.cool.com/~jsilva

by **ccorpor** » Wed, 25 Jun 1997 04:00:00

R:

You can also today order Motoracer which has dirt bikes and jumps which is
somewhat comparable to Soda racing along with street racers. This game is
classified as arcadish, supports 8 multiplayer and runs on both Voodoo and
Rendition at ridiculous speeds. I will go on to state which I feel is very
important. There has to be a catergory between SIM and ARCADE. As Motoracer
falls into it. It's arcadish in the terms that you aren't heavily penalized
for crashes, it's closer to simmish in terms or actual control and feel. The
later is most critical IMO. Now going to the Arcade I fiddled with Sega's Indy
500 for about 1 whole minute before I stood up and claimed publically it was a
piece of shi!. The car had absolutley no feel. They make these games so you
can't help but crash and can't go far for $.75. So IMO Motoracer goes well
beyond your typical Arcade game thus I don't feel it's fair being lable soley
as one. The control of the vehicle is paramont in my beliefs to making a good
racing game.

I love N2 and I love Motoracer. Both are excellent, both are available today,
to bad both don't support voodoo.

Q.B.M.