rec.autos.simulators

http://www.racesimcentral.net/

One flame per person, please <G>

Cheers,

Randy
Randy Magruder
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Just wondering...

You made this review towards gamers or towards simracers ? You should agree
that there is nothing in this software to really appeal to simracers, who
want some unique and different stuff (and since your posting your URL for
your review here, you should know that ;)    ).

I mean cmon.  Track map.  Arcade-style AI (slows in-front, goes faster
behind you), window-in-window highlight replays,  no separate-axis,
very-relaxed physics, auto-pilot in the pits, very bad track accuracy on
many circuits.

There is still some very good stuff in it.  The replay where you can pop-up
back into the race (maybe not greatly done but it's a neat idea).  The
brake-bias settings during the race, The sound, views (well I don't like the
cheap looking 3d***pit)  and the nice telemetry-graphic

So, is 88% a rating towards gamers or simracers ? The first is a good
indicative (my brother, a pure gamer loved it), but for the second.. hmm not
sure :)

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank>
-- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.racesimcentral.net/
-- SimRacing Online http://www.racesimcentral.net/
-- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
-- May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

MR
Toca2 Players Guide

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Both.  I don't have the luxury of two independent scoring systems.  I
have to rate each game with both audiences in mind.  Otherwise I'd
have to absolutely destroy every arcade game in the review, no matter
how perfect or wonderful it is!

I don't accept your premise.  I'm a simracer.  I have put in my
endless hours setting up and racing NASCAR , GPL, ICR2, GP2, etc --
that doesn't mean I'm incapable of enjoying something like TOCA 2 or
OF1R if it plays well and is fun.  Some simracers obviously aren't
interested in anything that isn't at utmost level of realism.  That's
fine. I indicate as such in the review.  Re-read The Bottom Line page
and you'll see I've made it clear that those who want *** sims
EXCLUSIVELY should pass on this title. But I also know that a lot of
the people who race *** sims also enjoy more lightweight sims
from time to time.  In my case, I don't have the personal bandwidth to
dedicate to BOTH Monaco Grand Prix and GPL, so I choose GPL.  When I'm
not in the mood for GPL, I've got TOCA 2 and OF1R to kick back with.
My review was in no way deceptive, and please do not close your eyes
to the fact that enjoying one thing does mean you are incapable of
enjoying or finding positive things in something else.

Yeah?  It's an option.  If you don't want it, turn it off.

Not always.  From time to time I've noticed it.  This should happen
more in arcade mode, which was designed to do this, but I think a fix
is necessary in this regard (and btw, they aren't always slower in
front of you in sim mode...quite often I couldn't catch them).  The AI
inconsistencies should be addressed, but at least they aren't ramming
you every other second the way past arcade F1 games did.

You don't like it?  Turn it off.  (a lot of these toggles are
available IN the game, which is quite nice).  Anyway, that's why it's
an option.

Sports Car GT doesn't support a separate axis either (the demo had a
patch for it, but it sure didn't ship with support for that).  However
TOCA 2 does.  So what are we saying?  A sim fan won't like SCGT but
will like TOCA 2?  I complain about axis inflexibility whenever I
encounter it, be it in a 'sim' or an 'arcade' game.

The track accuracy is, in my opinion, no worse than in any other F1
game I've played.  I use the great book "Grand Prix Circuits" ( a
must-buy I think ) and footage to compare games.  In this particular
game they blew a few elevation changes and missed a few curbs, but all
in all I have found the tracks to be comparable in overall accuracy to
past works, meaning nobody's done EVERYTHING right yet.  As far as
auto-pilot in the pits, the same is true for SCGT and many other sims.
More sims do autopilot than do not at this point.  If this is a big
deal to you, so be it.  As far as relaxed physics...For most gamers
I'm more concerned with whether they are WRONG than whether they are
RELAXED.  There's nothing inherently wrong with a more forgiving
driving model, although obviously it appeals less to diehard people
who aren't satisfied unless they need to devote several weeks to
getting around a course without spinning.

At least it HAS a 3D***pit (and I don't find it spectacular OR
cheap) And you have to admit that it is a MAJOR screwup that MGP and
GP2 do NOT have brake bias adjustments in the***pit.  This is a
major component of real driving, compensating for car handling changes
during a race.

The 88% rating is my measure of the quality of the game.  It is a mark
of the craftsmanship of the game, its depth of features, its usability
and its playability.  How it scores on the "realism-o-meter" is
something that can't be totally used in the score because the site I
write for is not exclusively dedicated to *** simmers, but sports
gamers in general.  If you want to know whether it would interest you
as a *** sim fan, READ THE TEXT.  I think I make it quite clear
where they have failed to please the *** GPL/MGP-style fan.

I'll tell you one thing, though, the ability to push the car ***
the exits and put a wheel off without the car suddenly dropping 30 mph
in speed is quite welcome.  I actually feel like testing the limits of
the car and the track in this game.  MGP is so punitive about putting
a wheel off I rarely challenge it, and the 'digital' throttle in MGP
is a killer.  From nothing to readline in about 1mm of pedal travel!

Ultimately, whether OF1R appeals to a sim fan will vary from person to
person based upon what kinds of racers they enjoy and how diverse
their tastes run.  But I've got no beef with anyone who doesn't want
anything to do with a relaxed-physics game like TOCA or OF1R.   They
can consider my review an indictment of the game from a *** sim
fan's perspective (ignore the score and read the TEXT).  Had I the
liberty of two scoring systems you might have been happier. As it is,
you just have to look at the text to see where the game shakes out.  I
take both audiences into account in the review.

Randy

Randy Magruder
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Thanks!

As a matter of fact I have and will be posting a review of it in the
next week.

I've still got more seat time to log before I can put in a final
opinion.  I know the patch addresses AI issues so I've got to
investigate that, too.  I did a little multiplayer racing already.

Thanks, I hope it saves you a lot of trouble finding out the expensive
way whether you want it or not :)

Cheers,

Randy
Randy Magruder
http://members.home.com/rmagruder

No flame here, Randy.

I -really- like OF1R, as politically unpopular as that may be.. :)

OF1R is realistic enough to make you -sweat-, and the graphics, replays,
framerate, AI and sound are mind-bogglingly immersive, IMO. I will go
so far as to say that it is the current best depiction of modern F1.
That doesn't mean OF1R is as *** as some of us (including myself) want,
but maybe Mr. Crammond will help us out on that one later. I am having a
-blast- driving it and I am currently driving it more than GPL.... [gasp].

Another thing that -must- be said. No matter which *** newsgroup
you attend, there are the sacred cows. In the flight-sim ng, the sacred
cows are LB2, F4, Flanker, F15. Any flightsim product that is released
that doesn't do what they do, is immediately flamed into the ground.

I have a theory after watching these shenanigans on Usenet/Arpanet
for about 10 years now and it is that many people have bought into the
'Highlander Syndrome'. The Highlander Syndrome says that
'There Can Only be One' KING sim/game, whatever. All the rest suck
mightily. They must be deleted immediately, other newsgroup users
'warned' about  the dangers of enjoying them, and the developers
publicly humiliated for daring to create such an abomination.

<vbg>

I don't buy into the Highlander Syndrome. I enjoy MANY sims and
games for what they have to offer. *I* can evaluate each on their merits,
thankyouveryverymuch and don't feel the need to eliminate all but
one from my hard drive.. :)

My all-time favorite racing sims/games? In no particular order:

ICR2, GPL, Viper, TOCA2, SCGT, NFS-HS, OF1R, GP2 .
(All but GP2 are currently on my HD and never a week goes by
that -each- of them is not driven.)

Enough babbling. Congrats on a *spot-on* review, and the balls to
announce it to this tough crowd.. :)

--
* rrevved at mindspring dot com
* unit.26 - s.p.u.t.u.m.
* http://www.racesimcentral.net/
* http://www.racesimcentral.net/

"The car doesn't behave as if your right foot is just one slip away from
putting down over 800 horsepower on the rear tires, so you don't have to
fight a lot of wheelspin-induced looseness, though it does exist."

You also state:

"Sometimes I think that diehard sim fans evaluate a game's realism based
more upon how difficult it is to drive than any real idea of whether the
fundamentals of vehicle dynamics are implemented. So, a car that's almost
impossible to drive is immediately accepted as realistic, whereas any car
that can be driven easily, near real-life times is considered arcade and
unrealistic. "

Since the graphics on your site include grooved tires, I assume that the
game is based on the 1998 F1 season. Many real life F1 drivers have
described these cars with words such as nervous, twitchy, and unforgiving.
These are "the fundamentals of vehicle dynamics" of modern F1 cars with
grooved tires by those who are in a position to know. This clearly implies a
certain challenge to control these beasts over those of previous years.

In light of this, it seems hard to imagine why a developer would go to the
trouble of adding so many other realistic details such as the loss of grip
in turbulent air when following another car, while missing something as
fundamental as the amount of grip or stability these cars generate. After
all, the game not only has a "realistic" mode, the publishers  claim it is
one of the best implementations to date! What better place to model
something as fundamental to modern F1 cars with grooved tires as a lack of
grip and unforgivingness than in the "realistic" mode of the game? Its not
there. Not even close.

It leads to an overall frustration with the game and perhaps a lack of
appreciation of some in this group of the very realistic things that the
game does. When the fundamentals aren't there as many in this group believe,
the fact that other less important aspects have been done better and more
realistically than ever before only adds to the frustration and a sense of
what could have been.

With a more realistic physics model and AI in "realistic" mode, it could
have been great. Without it, the effort and the game are a waste.

Your review does an excellent job of pointing out the things that the game
does well. I commend you for devoting your time to actual gameplay over what
was clearly many hours, and for having the courage to state your favorable
opinions of a game that so many here have bashed as being worthless.

Nevertheless, I disagree with your assesment. For me the gameplay should be
weighted above all other categories, and the realism of the physics model
should be weighted the highest in the gameplay category. As such, the game
misses the mark and for the readers of this group, it is doubtful that it
would be a worthwhile purchase.

Uh.. yes it does.
I'm using a TM NASCAR Super Sport and Split Axis works fine.

Techware Motorsports
http://skyscraper.fortunecity.com/epson/94/

- James Wohlever

Randy

Those aren't really fundamentals.  The friction circle and the basics
of weight transfer are the fundamentals.  But the actual performance
envelope differs from car to car.

Yes, and I made it clear in the review that if you want to be
challenged just to get around the circuit then this is not the game
for you.

For the very simple reason that they are trying to represent "the
sport".  When someone watches F1 they hear about how difficult it is
to overtake because of the push generated by loss of air.  They also
hear about drivers adjusting brake bias as the fuel load licenses, or
how tires go away.  These are things which people who watch F1 races
can relate to, even if they aren't the driving equivalent of Michael
Schumacher.  It increases the appreciation of some of the problems
current F1 drivers face, even if the overall performance envelope is
made more forgiving.

They all claim that, unfortunately, and no one has really gotten
close, in my opinion.  In short, they are all lying to sell their
product...at issue is how much each one is lying.  After all, how
realistic is it when you can't adjust brake bias in the***pit?  GP2
didn't even have weather, and yet it is a highly regarded sim!

None of the games are.

Perhaps.  Developers have to pick and choose to try to make the best
game that will appeal to the most people and make them the most money.
Sad reality, but reality it is.

We disagree on what is a "fundamental".  We can launch a discussion on
that if you like.  I'm prepared to defend my position, but we may
ultimately disagree on what the fundamentals of a driving physics are.

Look we agree that this is not a *** sim, and advertising at such
was mischaracterizing the product.  Anyone who reads my review should
glean that.  For the game to be a waste it should mean that hardly
anyone will enjoy it.  I disagree with this.

Thanks.  Believe me, it does cross my mind that I could spark a holy
war if I do anything but blast anything less than *** sims as
garbage.  And I have blasted my share of arcade games which are so
wrong and feel so crappy to drive that I could barely stand spending
enough time with them to write the review.  I would have gladly axed
this game if I thought it deserved it.  But I found myself having fun
with it.  I could put a wheel off and not stick to the ground like
glue like MGP.  I was very aware of how I was taking care (or not
taking care) of my tires.  I was shifting the brake balance to make
the care more drivable.  I was enjoying making setup changes.  I was
trying to remember to account for the understeer when following cars
through fast sweepers.  I also have had to drive the car to the
absolute limit (and yes it has one) trying to catch up, and have often
spun off trying.  But I've had fun, and there's no way I was going to
fudge a review so that people in this newsgroup would think of me as a
good and faithful *** sim fan!

We don't disagree on the weighting.  What we do agree is on the issue
of how realistic it has to be before its allowed to be 'fun' and
whether or not the basic principles of driving a car are followed, and
in most areas of the envelope the game does a good job, though it
fails in others and isn't as tough as a real F1 car (no sim is).

Re-read my "Bottom line".  I clearly state who I think would like this
game, and that DOES include some sim fans with wider tastes.

Cheers,

Randy
Randy Magruder
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

SCGT doesn't work with split-axis on either my TSW or
my Force RS. It doesn't configure in the keystroke\turn the
wheel dialog that SCGT uses.

On my Force RS, I have to hold both pedals down as SCGT loads...then it
works fine.

--
Scott Moore
Sports *** Network
http://www.racesimcentral.net/***.com

It's an interesting point of you you got into this review.  I praise your
able to reach both markets here.

<snip good points>

Im about sure SCGT has.  I had no problem with seperate axis in the full
version, it was in the demo that you had to patch it IIRC).  But returning
to the point, from a racing simulation point of view, I do think in 1999 it
is necessary to have a game engine that can model both gas and brake action
at the same time. It is a very important part of racing that can't be
underestimated.  Im even talking to Papyrus here and it's old game engine.

Good points, but you really think it's the way to go ? Not caring about
pitting on your own, or cheap track-accuracy.  I've always said that : "Try
not.  Do, or do not.  There is no try".  You do it correctly or you don't do
it at all.

I agree, as I said there is interesting points in OF1R that you don't find
in other racing simulations.

Good point.  I was just searching for your opinion, and I fully agree on
your statement (and the review).   Was just trying to go a little further.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank>
-- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.racesimcentral.net/
-- SimRacing Online http://www.racesimcentral.net/
-- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
-- May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I agree... It was a very accurate review.  In fact it was a gift to my
brother, but I guess when I went to his home I spent more time on it than
him 8)

Just for the kicks, here is my list :

Icr2, GPL, Gp2, N2, N1, MGPRS2, NFS1, Star Wars : Pod Racer, insert about
all the 200 other arcade/sim racing games.  Icr2 is so underestimated, when
you clearly start to understand the physics of the car it's a blast,
especially on the street courses.  Won't be uninstalled until a future CART
sim, if it's ever done :(

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank>
-- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/
-- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/
-- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
-- May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Man, I agree wholeheartedly. I was almost motivated, last week, to do
a little writeup here for those that haven't experienced this great sim in
a while. I love it. It is VERY realistic and very challenging. With my
TSW, it is open-wheel heaven!! Also, with the wide variety of tracks,
both road courses and ovals, there is a -lot- to learn. I personally
like blasting around Laguna Seca. I also like Mid-Ohio, having raced
there a long time ago.

It ain't coming off my hard drive either.. :)

--
* rrevved at mindspring dot com
* unit.26 - s.p.u.t.u.m.
* http://www.cabal.net
* http://www.sputum.com