rec.autos.simulators

Having tested both the '0.52 preview' version and the demo, I must admit
that I'm actually quite disappointed about the latter. For several reasons:

Sure the Mini is fun to drive and it all look stunning.. BUT (big but) it
just feels so wrong compared to the earlier version I tested.. (in case you
missed it...  I made a preview-movie of 'RT' some time ago.. (43mb -
3min40ish - DivX)  ( http://www.racesimcentral.net/~igplc )

First of all let me say that I am aware that the 3 cars in the preview was
all RWD while the Mini is ofcourse a FWD car.  Having owned and raced a Mini
over several years I think there is something *very* wrong with the FWD and
certainly the Mini physics. I have been "on the edge" (and beyond!) with a
mini several times and there are certain things you *never* do with a FWD
car... among them is going *off* the throttle when you got the car is
sliding with opposite lock - it will "come back at ya" with a snap!! Big
time!
If you get into a slide - there's only one way to get out of it..  and that
is to get the pedal to the metal and make the car "pull" itself straght
again.  Go of the throttle and you'll get a contra-slide instantly.  Try
this in the demo and you'll see that the car just "plows" staight on... just
like a understeering cow.

Secondly... the physics - have they been changed? For the *worse* I mean?
To me the physics in the demo both feel and look a lot simpler and "easier"
than the 0.52 preview. I've just been comparing the two and I must say that
either the physics have been made easier (to boost sales?) or someone's
modelled the Mini with a centre of gravity well below ground.. I've just
spendt 10 minutes trying to roll the damn thing - and it's virtually
impossible!!   Back to ver.0.52; get upto 60-70kmh driver up a bank and -
hold thight 'cause round [and round] we go!!  (Give that a go in the demo.)

Another thing missing is an analouge clutch...  Please tell me it will be
modelled - it is a must!!?!

Then there's the sound..  or in some instances, lack of.
The Mini do sound correct at one point...  that being under power/load
between apx. 3500 - 5000 rpm. That is the only time it soounds resonably
correct. The other times it sound either like a V8 dragster (1-2000 rpm no
load) or like a sewing-machine.. (5500 rpm+) Actual recordings or not..  I
*know* how a Mini should sound, and this is not it. Oh.. and what happend to
the straight cut gearbox??  Inside the car - that is the sound you hear
above anything else!

Then there's the lack of sound when you watch the replay....  Why is it so
hard to make a car simulator sound like one??   Why do we have to listen to
birds sing or crowds clapping/cheering?? Anyone that's attended a rally know
that the first sign you get of a car approaching - is the sound! You'll hear
this miles before you even see the car!  I want cars to sound *LOUD*!!
Driving fast on a gravel road (espacially loose gravel) usually also make
quite a lot of noice...  another missing thing.

Another thing thats really annoys me - is the co-driver; "Next time say on
the track Pleeeeaase" ????  Talk about a lame character!! Who on earth wrote
his script?
Other problems is that "he" never give out any distance-figures, is way to
slow in calling out the pace-notes and need to get his priorites sorted..
(rock's beside the road is not important compared to a blind sharp
left-hander behind a crest when you're flat out in 4th!!) Please make the
pacenotes atleast seem real..

As for those symbols/pacenotes being displayed on top of the screen... I
sure wish I could get rid of 'em.  (Look at Rally Championship - it got the
best pace-note system (and notes)  to date imho.)

Then there's the replay system; it will get better - right?  I mean.. those
track-side cameras are so uncontrollable/unpredictable..  I really hope
we'll see cameras track-side thru-out the stage.  ?

Last but not least... as an avid Mini fan.. I must ofcourse nit-pick on a
few "small" flaws in the modelling of this great car:

- ground-clearance too high
- wheels too big - should be 10"
- car generally look out of proportion compared to the real McCoy.. too high
and narrow.
- front door hinges (exterior) are missing
- door-hinges to boot-lid should be red.
- exhaust-pipe way too big.. dia. should be 2" max!
- right side fuel-tank and fuel-cap is missing!
- spare tire in the backseat...  it should be in the boot (no room for it in
the back-seat)
- Halda Tripmaster is on the complete wrong side or the car - it is used by
the co-driver!!

Btw., I hope a frame-rate counter/checker will be included in the final
version?  Same goes for exporting results btw.

On a good note..  The demo is indeed using a better 3d-engine... with a lot
higher framerate.. Especially during replay. Other points I have noticed is
easier menu navigation and such.

My big concern tho, is that unless these things have been looked at
allready - they probably wont be fixed before the release - due to lack of
time :-(  I hope they'll will make 'RT' more editable than it is tho... the
compressed package formats used so far can prove hard to "crack".  That way
we can either fix some ourselfs or make our own add-ons cars, tracks and
rallies.. and by so ensure the longlivety of it all..  (How many here would
still race GPL had there not been any add-ons?)

1 week ago Rally Thropy was on my "must have" list - right now, I'm not that
sure.. - I think there are a few things I'd like answered before I willing
to depart with my hard earned cash.

Guys?

--
Ed Solheim
The GPLEA
--------------------------------------
- My name is Elliott Forbes Robinson.
Spell it, please.
- E-F-R.
No, no, spell your name.
- E-F-R!

I still think it's a must-have, even if it isn't GPL on gravel.

Exactly.  Anyone whose driven a car knows that they are virtually impossible
to control.

Rafe Mc

you might indeed be right, the physics might be different from the
preview version, but I can't compare as I've only seen the demo. What I
can say is that perhaps it's not the physics that has issues, but just a
few parameters that vary from version to version, and from the game to
real life.

The first one is the control setup/feedback. In demo, even at the lowest
settings, the steering is perhaps too sensitive. I noticed that letting
go off the gas may produce an understeer when the wheel is turned, but
that is because the front wheels are travelling so much sideways that
letting go of the accelerator actually effectively locks the front
wheels. The same thing I observed in my own car in the snow when I had
no idea of how to properly drive (I probably still don't ;) ). In a real
car (unless you are as incompetent as myself) you'd never turn the front
wheels into the turn as much as you do in the demo, and that may be a
source of your discrepancies.

The next thing to consider is whether you are talking of loose or just
dirty surfaces. On loose surfaces, the car should be more responsive
even at extreme attitudes due to the characteristics of the force vs.
slip response on such materials. In the demo it appears that the loose
component is very small, it feels more like a low grip surface.
Therefore the car may not dig in the way you would expect it too but
just understeer into the scenery.

Of course, you might be entirely right, but I would just like to make
sure that whatever criticism you level at the sim is done from a proper
reference point and taking many considerations into account, as relating
real life to a sim experience isn't quite straightforward.

But taking a short step back and looking at what Rally Trophy does in
relation to what it is trying to achieve I'm sure most will agree it
does that superbly (at least the demo does :) ). It's by far the most
realistic handling rally sim out there, even though it might not
correspond spec to spec to real life, but which sim does? Graphically
and auraly it's tough to beat as well. It's also very cheeky and has
great atmosphere. It's one of the great surprises of this year and not
embracing would be ludicrous.

-Gregor

Also, 0-100km/h in 7.2 seconds.  That's a little too fast on gravel, no?

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.ymenard.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Andre

I too find the brakes *very* sensitive and *very* easy to lock up.
They also seem slow to release, as you mention.  My technique for the
very slow corners is to use extremely gentle braking.  It seems to
give enough retardation, without locking the wheels.

For the faster corners, a quick dab of the brakes while turning in
will point the car in the right direction (usually).  This is with the
gas on full the whole time.  

The only Mini I've ever driven wasn;t mine, and the owner was sitting
next to me.  I didn;t get to try such techniques :-(

If it's a calibration problem, sounds like I have it too!

Ian
--
Ian Riches
GPL Rank +2.36 Monsters of GPL +296.53

Why is the controller configuration sooooooo bad? Have they never seen
GPL's?

Gerry

Andre

I'll stop the rant here, I just had a VERY bad time rereading lots of
the DirectInput documents and stepping through example code from the
start, because otherwise I couldn't get a simple DX8 conversion to
compile, or even run. :( It's slightly better now, after 2-3 hours of
work, and boy, do I feel lucky I never use DirectX code directly in my
application code; that would have been the end of it.

Have a nice day. :)

Ruud van Gaal
Free car sim  : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/racer/
Pencil art    : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/