rec.autos.simulators

GPL is HARD!!!

Stuart Boo

GPL is HARD!!!

by Stuart Boo » Sun, 04 Oct 1998 04:00:00


>From what I've found running practice laps in the demo, you gotta pretend
>you've got eggs strapped on the pedals.  Smooth & easy does it. Just a little
>too much throttle coming out of a turn & I'm doing 360's down the track! Same
>thing if I'm braking too long into a turn, I'll spin off every time.

Get back on the power into the corner after, or even perhaps during
braking. Hence the need for separate axis pedals so that you can
balance the car more. It feels, to me at least, that the car is under
far greater control under power than braking into the corner.
Unfortunately I've only got the demo so far...

Stuart

--
Stuart Booth
Somewhere in Buckinghamshire, England, UK

Note: My email address is in disguise! Remove trailing Z

Alison Hi

GPL is HARD!!!

by Alison Hi » Sun, 04 Oct 1998 04:00:00

This advice from Peter Gagg is terrific.  The only thing I would add is
to start out in the Advanced Trainer, rather than the Grand Prix car.  

The AT cars all have 200 hp, vs about 400 hp for most of the GP cars.
This makes it much easier to learn to control the cars; they are not
quite so ready to leap at the scenery at the slightest touch of
throttle.  Also, in terms of overall lap times, the Advanced Trainers
are not too much slower than the GP cars; I've done a few laps in the
1:32 range at Zandvoort, for example.  I found that when I was learning
to drive in GPL, if I did a few laps (maybe 50 or so) in an AT, then I
did much better in the GP car.

Don't feel like a wimp if you choose to race the AT's for a while.  With
their size and weight, the ATs are roughly comparable to the full-house
1.5 liter GP cars of 1961 through 1965, and not much different from the
cars derived from the 1.5 liter cars which many of the teams used as
interim cars in 1966 and early 1967.

It is possible to race against the AI with the Trainers if you change a
single character in your player.ini file.  See the general FAQ on my GPL
site for details:

  http://www.racesimcentral.net/~alison/gpl/

One other point which may not have been emphasized in this thread quite
enough: you need to practice a lot.  <Very Big Grin>  

I drove more than 500 laps at Monza before I felt I really was
competitive there, and Monza is the simplest track.  And I'm still
learning.  Although I know all the tracks fairly well by now, I find
that I need about 200 laps at most circuits to get down to reasonable
times, if I've been away from that circuit for more than a week or two.

Yeah, I guess I agree with the title of this thread.  :-)

Alison





>> That's an interesting one.  I've wondered sometimes if it's better
>> to start off fast and work on consistency, or start consistent and
>> work on speed.  Would you mind explaining the advantage of the
>> latter?

>> >6) Start off slowly and gradually build up your speed, not the
>> other
>> >way around.

>Most people get a new racing game/sim and jump straight in with both
>feet and immediately try to break all known lap records at the first
>attempt without even glancing at the manual!!!!

>This usually results in lots of unscheduled *off-road* driving
>admiring the scenery when you should in fact be on the track
>practicing. This is caused because the drivers have not learnt how to
>control the car, not learnt the circuits, and they are driving *TOO
>FAST* and end up continually crashing. This in turn dents confidence,
>and can get very annoying? and you do not learn that much from
>continually crashing (apart from where the barriers are situated?
>and how slow it is to get out of the gravel trap?)

>The more conservative approach (driving slower and gradually building
>up speed) will ultimately be more beneficial (IMHO?) because of many
>reasons...

>1) Driving slower gives you more time to react.
>2) You can see & learn the correct racing line easier at lower
>speeds.
>3) Car control is easier at lower speeds.
>4) You will crash less at lower speeds.
>5) If you crash less your confidence will rise.
>6) Remembering circuits is easier at lower speeds.

>My method for a new game/sim is to take a few laps to just drive
>around the circuit, not fast at all, to familiarise myself with the
>general layout. (Also check out any maps or diagrams in the manual,
>etc).

>Then try some faster laps, but the object is to just try and stay on
>the track without spinning/crashing off. Once I can do this
>consistently (I have learnt to anticipate the corners and bends) I
>start to gradually increase speed and try to lower my laptimes, but
>the emphasis is on gradually.

>As you gradually drive more laps, you get more familiar with the
>circuit, and can anticipate better, try to go faster on the straights
>on each lap by accelerating out of corners earlier. also try to brake
>into corners a little bit later on each lap. Each lap you are only
>trying to improve on the last one (even if it is only by 1/100th of a
>second) and not trying for an out and out record. Although,
>obviously, if you drive an outstanding lap, then that is a bonus!

>As the laps count off, you will find the best braking points, the
>best gear change points, and the correct line for the circuit. You
>will also be learning about the car, how it brakes, how it
>accelerates, how it slides, how the wheels lock up, etc. Because you
>are doing it gradually, you are learning that little bit extra on
>each lap, feeling for the limit of the car, the braking limits, the
>traction limits, etc.

>I find using this method, after about 20 - 25 laps of pretty much any
>circuit, in any game/sim, that I have learnt enough about the car and
>circuit to drive a fairly competitive lap? This means after say about
>half an hour to an hour I can be pretty quick and fairly consistent.

>Whereas, the guy that just jumps in feet first and drives hell for
>leather (unless he is *very* talented?) ends up spending the first
>half an hour to an hour spinning all over the place, crashing out,
>smashing into things, *AND* at the end of it all, he knows *** all
>about the cars limit or the layout of the circuit, cos he has spent
>more time off the circuit than the marshals!!!

>8-)

>*Peter*    8-)
>(NB: remove asterix to e-mail)

Alison



Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me.
http://www.racesimcentral.net/,ultranet.com/~alison

Michael E. Carve

GPL is HARD!!!

by Michael E. Carve » Mon, 05 Oct 1998 04:00:00



% >%         Agreed . I am even thinking about getting a wheel for this
% >% sim. Never needed one with the Indycar , Narcar for f1rs series. I
% >% wonder if it would make this any easier?
% >
% >Actually what is more important than the "wheel" are analog pedals.  If
% >you are trying to "drive" GPL with digital (on/off) breake and
                               Did I actually type this ^^^^^ ? ECCK!
% >accelerator, you are indeed in for a long haul.  While you are at it
% >look for pedal setup that will allow for the brake and accelerater to be
% >on separate axes.
% >

% You mean gas & breaks via keyboard?  <gasp>  I'm using my Thrustmaster Elite
% rudder pedals (I'm also a flightsim freak) which are digital I believe,
% they do
% quite nicely. And the Thrustmaster joystick for steering tho I'm a *little*
% less satisfied with that.

% I've got an ancient Thrustmaster Formula T1 wheel & pedals but I haven't
% use it
% yet, I hate the pedals.   They're too stiff for me, they've got these big
% rollers your feet go on which I don't like, & they're too close together. With
% a foot on the gas & one over the brakes my knees bang together :(

% What I'd *like* to do is hook up my Thrustmaster wheel to my Thrustmaster
% rudder pedals.  But I bet that won't work. Anyone know if that could be made to
% work?

First you can move the brake pedal/roller over to the far left hand slot
with no problem.  Second, I found that wearing heavy soled shoes helped
alot with the T1 roller/pedals (Marcis wing-tips?).

What axes are the rudder pedals on?  If they aren't on X1, they should
work with the T1 wheel.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

doug

GPL is HARD!!!

by doug » Mon, 05 Oct 1998 04:00:00

Passing in this game is often best accomplished at the turns, not in the
straights.  Just watch F1 on TV .. you'll get the idea

>I know it has been said before but GPL is really hard. At novice setting
>I have a tough time staying on the track. Never mid even trying to keep
>up with the other cars. I find that even on the straights I can at best
>only keep up with them. I would have assumed that at novice setting I
>might have a little more power. Any suggestions? I like the fact that it
>is hard but I think it may be so hard that I'm not sure I'll ever get
>good enough to even be competitive.

>Vamp

Mart

GPL is HARD!!!

by Mart » Mon, 05 Oct 1998 04:00:00


> The more conservative approach (driving slower and gradually building
> up speed) will ultimately be more beneficial (IMHO?) because of many
> reasons...

> 1) Driving slower gives you more time to react.
> 2) You can see & learn the correct racing line easier at lower
> speeds.
> 3) Car control is easier at lower speeds.
> 4) You will crash less at lower speeds.
> 5) If you crash less your confidence will rise.
> 6) Remembering circuits is easier at lower speeds.

7) Starting slow keeps you on the track so you can string together
consecutive laps which leads to a rhythm and the necessary timing to
drive consistently near the limits of the car and your ability.

Oh, and practice, practice, practice.

Marty

Michael E. Carve

GPL is HARD!!!

by Michael E. Carve » Mon, 05 Oct 1998 04:00:00


% > The more conservative approach (driving slower and gradually building
% > up speed) will ultimately be more beneficial (IMHO?) because of many
% > reasons...
% >
% > 1) Driving slower gives you more time to react.
% > 2) You can see & learn the correct racing line easier at lower
% > speeds.
% > 3) Car control is easier at lower speeds.
% > 4) You will crash less at lower speeds.
% > 5) If you crash less your confidence will rise.
% > 6) Remembering circuits is easier at lower speeds.

% 7) Starting slow keeps you on the track so you can string together
% consecutive laps which leads to a rhythm and the necessary timing to
% drive consistently near the limits of the car and your ability.

% Oh, and practice, practice, practice.

8)  Starting off slow and smooth vs. fast and wreakless also helps
prevent learning "bad habits" which may get in the way of really being
fast further down your career.

And yes, practice, practice, practice.  While I am on this important
aspect...  It's best to take your learning "curve" one turn at a time.
Concentrate on attacking one turn until you get it down and then work
on the next turn.  Sorta like putting a puzzle together, when the last
piece locks into place!

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

LLam5559

GPL is HARD!!!

by LLam5559 » Mon, 05 Oct 1998 04:00:00

>First you can move the brake pedal/roller over to the far left hand slot
>with no problem.  Second, I found that wearing heavy soled shoes helped
>alot with the T1 roller/pedals (Marcis wing-tips?).

>What axes are the rudder pedals on?  If they aren't on X1, they should
>work with the T1 wheel.

>--
>**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
>     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

 Hey thanks for the info :)  I'll try this out.

Remove the "X" to email

Micro Graphi

GPL is HARD!!!

by Micro Graphi » Tue, 06 Oct 1998 04:00:00

[This followup was posted to rec.autos.simulators and a copy was sent to
the cited author.]

So have you got any recommendations to what wheel to buy?  Keeping in
mind value for money.

The other problem I've got is justifying the purchase of a wheel to my
wife.  She is not a petrol head like me.



--
Rob Yates

Found in the Land of OZ
http://users.netcon.net.au/ryates/index.htm

Michael E. Carve

GPL is HARD!!!

by Michael E. Carve » Wed, 07 Oct 1998 04:00:00


% So have you got any recommendations to what wheel to buy?  Keeping in
% mind value for money.

I think the main criteria should be pedals on a separate axes.  For
starters (and probabily the cheapest -- unless you make your own), the
NASCAR Pro by Thrustmaster is the entry level that I am aware of for
separate axes pedals.  And this IS needed for controlling the car in
GPL.  When the pedals are on the same axis, letting off the gas is the
same as touching the brake.   For more information check
http://www.thrustmaster.com

Thrustmaster is selling the NASCAR Pro for $99.95
<http://st1.yahoo.com/thrust>, so you may find it out there in the
discount stores for even less.

If you think you might need to build your own check out Wally's World
<http://www.oz.net/~wottenad/wheel.htm>

% The other problem I've got is justifying the purchase of a wheel to my
% wife.  She is not a petrol head like me.

Well, we may just have to do the "honey, look how much I would be
saving" routine (they love to do it, so turn about is fair play <G>).

Show her the top of the line goodies and tell her how they cost:

  o Thomas Enterprises  ($220-725)
    http://soli.inav.net/~thomas/index.html

  o Virtual Vehicles from Interactive I/O ($695-1295)
    http://www.interactiveio.com

  o Extreme Competition Controls  ($995-1299)
    http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/extreme

Then promise to buy her something special with the money you save!



% > Actually what is more important than the "wheel" are analog pedals.  If
% > you are trying to "drive" GPL with digital (on/off) breake and
% > accelerator, you are indeed in for a long haul.  While you are at it
% > look for pedal setup that will allow for the brake and accelerater to be
% > on separate axes.
% >
% --
% Rob Yates

% Found in the Land of OZ
% http://users.netcon.net.au/ryates/index.htm

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Neil Yeatma

GPL is HARD!!!

by Neil Yeatma » Wed, 07 Oct 1998 04:00:00


BZZZZT!  Wrong answer.  Letting off the gas is letting off the gas, not
pressing the brake.  Pressing on the gas and brake simultaneously is
where the problem is...holding the gas then pressing the brake reduces
the amount of gas, and the reverse is true.  To get full throttle,
you cannot have any brake input, and vice versa.

I just added a 2/3 axis switch to my TSW, and I have to learn to drive
GPL all over again.

--

Neil Yeatman          
Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

John Walla

GPL is HARD!!!

by John Walla » Wed, 07 Oct 1998 04:00:00

On Tue, 06 Oct 1998 06:30:09 -0400, Neil Yeatman


>BZZZZT!  Wrong answer.  Letting off the gas is letting off the gas, not
>pressing the brake.  Pressing on the gas and brake simultaneously is
>where the problem is...holding the gas then pressing the brake reduces
>the amount of gas, and the reverse is true.  To get full throttle,
>you cannot have any brake input, and vice versa.

AFAI understand Michael is/was right.

As long as gas/brake are on one axis then while on half throttle you
get exactly the same effect if by the sae amount you lift the throttle
or depress the brake. Essentially you just change the level of
throttle reported to the sim by that axis.

If the gas/brake are separated onto different axes then it becomes a
different picture.

Cheers!
John

Jeff Vince

GPL is HARD!!!

by Jeff Vince » Wed, 07 Oct 1998 04:00:00



>As long as gas/brake are on one axis then while on half throttle you
>get exactly the same effect if by the sae amount you lift the throttle
>or depress the brake. Essentially you just change the level of
>throttle reported to the sim by that axis.

>If the gas/brake are separated onto different axes then it becomes a
>different picture.

   An interesting question, just how the game interprets it.  In past
sims, it didn't make much difference, but in GPL, there is a distinct
difference in effect between gas (or lack of same) and brake (or lack
of same).  In older sims, gas/brake was more a single continuum of
acceleration/deceleration, versus the distinct simulated mechanical
and physical differences in GPL.

   I would assume that with a single axis set-up in GPL, the sim does
not allow simultaneous inputs on both controls: so long as you are on
the gas, you can't apply the brake, and vice versa.  I doubt that the
game compensates and "dumbs down" the inputs (mixing gas/brake) if you
are on a single axis.  (So I'd tend to agree with Neil on that point.)
Using a single axis would put you at a great disadvantage, I would
think.

   Me, I'm using a single axis (so this is all theoretical on my part)
and have gotten down to 1:34 flat at Monza soloing with the default
Eagle on my P133/V1000, how's that?  Of course, once I upgrade, I
won't have any more excuses.  ;)

   It's interesting how the increased realism of sims has been
accompanied by a raised need for finer input.  GP1 could be driven
with the keyboard.  For ICR1 you needed analog steering, but could get
by with digital gas/brakes.  For N1 you really needed analog
gas/brakes as well.  Now you need independent gas & brakes for GPL.
We're getting there, slow but sure...


NAR Northeast Regional Contest Board site - points and more...

Marty U'Re

GPL is HARD!!!

by Marty U'Re » Wed, 07 Oct 1998 04:00:00


You could point out much *** you'll be saving on the family grocery
getter by doing your four-wheel-drifts on the computer. :-)

Marty

Marty U'Re

GPL is HARD!!!

by Marty U'Re » Wed, 07 Oct 1998 04:00:00

Yes, and the point here is that with separate gas/brake you can use both
at once for car control in certain situations.

Marty


> On Tue, 06 Oct 1998 06:30:09 -0400, Neil Yeatman

> >BZZZZT!  Wrong answer.  Letting off the gas is letting off the gas,
> not
> >pressing the brake.  Pressing on the gas and brake simultaneously is
> >where the problem is...holding the gas then pressing the brake
> reduces
> >the amount of gas, and the reverse is true.  To get full throttle,
> >you cannot have any brake input, and vice versa.

> AFAI understand Michael is/was right.

> As long as gas/brake are on one axis then while on half throttle you
> get exactly the same effect if by the sae amount you lift the throttle

> or depress the brake. Essentially you just change the level of
> throttle reported to the sim by that axis.

> If the gas/brake are separated onto different axes then it becomes a
> different picture.

> Cheers!
> John

kosti

GPL is HARD!!!

by kosti » Wed, 07 Oct 1998 04:00:00


How you can separate gas/brake?


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