rec.autos.simulators

To all suggesting people go buy a new CD-ROM to run N4:

Marc Collin

To all suggesting people go buy a new CD-ROM to run N4:

by Marc Collin » Mon, 19 Feb 2001 00:25:33

Aside from a big raspberry...

Two questions...

1) Do you think Sierra wants to employ a copy protection scheme that
prevents potential paying customers from running their product...of course
not.

2) Why are we only hearing about this with N4 and not any other current
release racing sim or game?  EA has used copy protection for quite a while,
but we don't see the problems.  I know some other non-racing titles have
issues, but, to put it bluntly, I don't care about those games.

As I have stated before, there is a specific problem with N4 and it needs to
be addressed at point of sale.

Fortunately, I bought my N4 at an EB.  I picked up a second copy from
another batch at an EB store across town yesterday.  It installs and runs
perfectly, whereas my original one had serious problems.

I wouldn't have considered replacing a relatively recent Panasonic DVD
player under any circumstances anyway, but I think that others may be led to
go buy CD-ROMs just to get the game to run.  This is a gigantic waste of
money and lets Sierra off the hook for either poor quality pressings of the
CDs or for using a botched copy protection scheme.

N4, GPL, etc. cost enough money to upgrade CPU, memory, video, sound...you
shouldn't encourage people to spend money to replace a ROM drive that runs
everything else fine.

I'll be returning my first N4 at the first opportunity--as a defective disk.

Marc.

--
****************************************************************************
Marc Collins

Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change
to take effect. Reboot now?
****************************************************************************

Michael R Sisso

To all suggesting people go buy a new CD-ROM to run N4:

by Michael R Sisso » Mon, 19 Feb 2001 02:18:09



I had it happen with Diablo II on my Creative DVD. The DVD would not work
after many attempts to install and run DII. I sent it off to be fixed,
but it was not under warranty and it was going to cost too much to fix. I
bought a burner to replace it.

> Marc.

> --
> ****************************************************************************
> Marc Collins

> Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change
> to take effect. Reboot now?
> ****************************************************************************

MRSisson

--
LOAD "GPL",8,1
RUN

Jeff Jone

To all suggesting people go buy a new CD-ROM to run N4:

by Jeff Jone » Mon, 19 Feb 2001 02:43:51

yeah, but CloneCD still works fine on N4 out of the box, so their plan
didn't work.

What has CP done for Sierra, except to***off paying customers? At this
moment, one could download a no-cd crack, a fixed .exe that allows one to
play with a burned CD, burn a copy with CloneCD, or just dnload the whole
friggin game from a warez site.

It looks to me like the warez d00dz are having fun playing N4, and many
customers who actually bought the game, are not.

GraDe

To all suggesting people go buy a new CD-ROM to run N4:

by GraDe » Mon, 19 Feb 2001 03:49:55

Ok, a  little OT but GP2 "way back in the day" had a form of copy
protection... so that isn't really a new thing that should cause problems.


****************************************************************************

> Marc Collins

> Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change
> to take effect. Reboot now?

****************************************************************************

- Show quoted text -

Mr. Nospa

To all suggesting people go buy a new CD-ROM to run N4:

by Mr. Nospa » Mon, 19 Feb 2001 04:25:23


> On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:25:33 GMT, "Marc Collins"

> >Aside from a big raspberry...

> >Two questions...

> >1) Do you think Sierra wants to employ a copy protection scheme that
> >prevents potential paying customers from running their product...of
course
> >not.

> I think Sierra has to use stern copy-protection to -increase- the
> sales of their products. As the casula user copying technology
> increases with each new version of CloneCD, etc., they have to
> improve their copy-protection or lose sales.

Thats funny because the Warez groups I'm sure had the game out before Sierra
even did.  This isn't any protection they can do that will protect their
software.  The ONLY thing they have limited is the ability to play online,
and thats only due to the software key stored on their servers.

Although you can still play online other places besides Sierras servers.

Cliff Roma

To all suggesting people go buy a new CD-ROM to run N4:

by Cliff Roma » Mon, 19 Feb 2001 04:44:51

You would be wrong, the game was sitting on the shelves before the warez
version of N4 was out.

I love the whole cd-key scheme in games.  I wish more games would use it for
online play.  I think that is a bigger stopper of piracy than anything.

Having to have a legit cd-key to play online is what causes alot of people
to actually go out and buy a game. Half-Life and Q3 really showed that.




> > On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:25:33 GMT, "Marc Collins"

> > >Aside from a big raspberry...

> > >Two questions...

> > >1) Do you think Sierra wants to employ a copy protection scheme that
> > >prevents potential paying customers from running their product...of
> course
> > >not.

> > I think Sierra has to use stern copy-protection to -increase- the
> > sales of their products. As the casula user copying technology
> > increases with each new version of CloneCD, etc., they have to
> > improve their copy-protection or lose sales.

> Thats funny because the Warez groups I'm sure had the game out before
Sierra
> even did.  This isn't any protection they can do that will protect their
> software.  The ONLY thing they have limited is the ability to play online,
> and thats only due to the software key stored on their servers.

> Although you can still play online other places besides Sierras servers.

Alastair Ingra

To all suggesting people go buy a new CD-ROM to run N4:

by Alastair Ingra » Mon, 19 Feb 2001 05:26:11

I have a "legit" CD key and I cannot play on line. I can't play at all! It
might have worked for Half Life and Q3 but it doesn't work for N4. Sierra
offers a 90 day money back guarantee which I am going to take advantage of
and would suggest that everyone who cannot get the game to play, do the
same. I just bought my Yamaha CDR/RW a few months ago and I'm not about to
buy another. There is nothing wrong with it, why should I replace it? It
will be a cold day in hell before Sierra sees any money from me.

--
Alastair Ingram
www.saxlessons.com

> You would be wrong, the game was sitting on the shelves before the warez
> version of N4 was out.

> I love the whole cd-key scheme in games.  I wish more games would use it
for
> online play.  I think that is a bigger stopper of piracy than anything.

> Having to have a legit cd-key to play online is what causes alot of people
> to actually go out and buy a game. Half-Life and Q3 really showed that.





> > > On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:25:33 GMT, "Marc Collins"

> > > >Aside from a big raspberry...

> > > >Two questions...

> > > >1) Do you think Sierra wants to employ a copy protection scheme that
> > > >prevents potential paying customers from running their product...of
> > course
> > > >not.

> > > I think Sierra has to use stern copy-protection to -increase- the
> > > sales of their products. As the casula user copying technology
> > > increases with each new version of CloneCD, etc., they have to
> > > improve their copy-protection or lose sales.

> > Thats funny because the Warez groups I'm sure had the game out before
> Sierra
> > even did.  This isn't any protection they can do that will protect their
> > software.  The ONLY thing they have limited is the ability to play
online,
> > and thats only due to the software key stored on their servers.

> > Although you can still play online other places besides Sierras servers.

Don Burnett

To all suggesting people go buy a new CD-ROM to run N4:

by Don Burnett » Mon, 19 Feb 2001 05:37:05


I think you would be very hard pressed to find anyone that offered a Warez
version before N4 hit the streets.

Don Burnette

Don Burnett

To all suggesting people go buy a new CD-ROM to run N4:

by Don Burnett » Mon, 19 Feb 2001 05:41:00

Just so I understand, the biggest reason folks are not being able to run it
is by running it in their cd-rw drives?
I installed a Plextor 8/24/32 CD-RW several months ago, and not once thought
about using it as my primary cd-rom drive. I left my plain jane vanilla
cd-rom drive in my machine for those purposes, cd-rw's tend to have a shelf
life anyways usually determined by the number of discs you burn - I don't
want to be putting more wear on mine than necessary.
I only use my Plextor for burning cd's, all my games and so forth go through
my regular cd-rom.
I guess that's why I never have problems to date with the copy protection
schemes.
--
Don Burnette


> I have a "legit" CD key and I cannot play on line. I can't play at all! It
> might have worked for Half Life and Q3 but it doesn't work for N4. Sierra
> offers a 90 day money back guarantee which I am going to take advantage of
> and would suggest that everyone who cannot get the game to play, do the
> same. I just bought my Yamaha CDR/RW a few months ago and I'm not about to
> buy another. There is nothing wrong with it, why should I replace it? It
> will be a cold day in hell before Sierra sees any money from me.

> --
> Alastair Ingram
> www.saxlessons.com


> > You would be wrong, the game was sitting on the shelves before the warez
> > version of N4 was out.

> > I love the whole cd-key scheme in games.  I wish more games would use it
> for
> > online play.  I think that is a bigger stopper of piracy than anything.

> > Having to have a legit cd-key to play online is what causes alot of
people
> > to actually go out and buy a game. Half-Life and Q3 really showed that.





> > > > On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:25:33 GMT, "Marc Collins"

> > > > >Aside from a big raspberry...

> > > > >Two questions...

> > > > >1) Do you think Sierra wants to employ a copy protection scheme
that
> > > > >prevents potential paying customers from running their product...of
> > > course
> > > > >not.

> > > > I think Sierra has to use stern copy-protection to -increase- the
> > > > sales of their products. As the casula user copying technology
> > > > increases with each new version of CloneCD, etc., they have to
> > > > improve their copy-protection or lose sales.

> > > Thats funny because the Warez groups I'm sure had the game out before
> > Sierra
> > > even did.  This isn't any protection they can do that will protect
their
> > > software.  The ONLY thing they have limited is the ability to play
> online,
> > > and thats only due to the software key stored on their servers.

> > > Although you can still play online other places besides Sierras
servers.

Marc Collin

To all suggesting people go buy a new CD-ROM to run N4:

by Marc Collin » Mon, 19 Feb 2001 06:17:28

I respect your right to disagree, but I am not sure that you get my points
since each one seems to be ignored in favour of your perspective that has
been posted before.

The bottom line is that no one should have to upgrade/change/add an
otherwise functioning ROM drive to run a game designed to run on a ROM
drive.  It is a completely different point than upgrading all of the rest of
the hardware to "keep up" or to make the game run better, which is
inevitable.  I wasn't accusing Sierra of promoting this approach--I read it
here from people posting in r.a.s.

Copy protection schemes--admittedly needed--cannot and never will be so
stringent as to prevent the average person from using the product.  I would
love to hear a developer or publisher agree with your logic that preventing
casual copying is more important than preventing interested, paying,
potentially repeat customers from using the product.

I just proved that at least one of the problems was due to a bad pressing,
since the second disk works perfectly on the same system in the same DVD
drive that first one failed.  I am suggesting a bad pressing because I can
only assume that the second disk also contains the copy protection scheme.

I did not return the game, as many have suggested.  What a ludicrous
approach.  That leaves the person with no N4 to use.  I am returning my
unneeded, malfunctioning first copy since I now have a second working one to
use--the whole point of buying it in the first place.

Marc.


> On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:25:33 GMT, "Marc Collins"

> >Aside from a big raspberry...

> >Two questions...

> >1) Do you think Sierra wants to employ a copy protection scheme that
> >prevents potential paying customers from running their product...of
course
> >not.

> I think Sierra has to use stern copy-protection to -increase- the
> sales of their products. As the casula user copying technology
> increases with each new version of CloneCD, etc., they have to
> improve their copy-protection or lose sales.

> [snip]

> >As I have stated before, there is a specific problem with N4 and it needs
to
> >be addressed at point of sale.

> It -is- addressed, Marc. If it don't work...  return it.

> Or, alternatively, if you chose to buy it where it couldn't
> be returned, then use Sierra's money-back guarantee.

> >I wouldn't have considered replacing a relatively recent Panasonic DVD
> >player under any circumstances anyway,

> You don't have to -replace- your DVD player with a new CD drive. You just
> add the CD drive to your existing system. Of course you don't have
> to do anything at all to your hardware if you don't want to.

> > but I think that others may be led to
> >go buy CD-ROMs just to get the game to run.  This is a gigantic waste of
> >money

> I guess that depends on the user. If it is worth an additional 40 bucks to
> them to be able to run this sim, then so be it. You wouldn't be
> upset about users reporting that they bought another stick of RAM,
> or a new SB Live..

> >and lets Sierra off the hook for either poor quality pressings of the
> >CDs or for using a botched copy protection scheme.

> I don't know about quality of the CD pressings. What most of us
> have been discussing is the copy-protection issue.

> Different stuff.

> >N4, GPL, etc. cost enough money to upgrade CPU, memory, video,
sound...you
> >shouldn't encourage people to spend money to replace a ROM drive that
runs
> >everything else fine.

> They aren't encouraging anyone to purchase a new CD drive, Marc.
> There has not been a single report, here, of Sierra mentioning that.

> That's a choice that the user has to make for themselves....

> >I'll be returning my first N4 at the first opportunity--as a defective
disk.

> ..just like you're doing.

> >Marc.

Alan Bernard

To all suggesting people go buy a new CD-ROM to run N4:

by Alan Bernard » Mon, 19 Feb 2001 07:48:22





> > 2) Why are we only hearing about this with N4 and not any other current
> > release racing sim or game.

> I had it happen with Diablo II on my Creative DVD. The DVD would not work
> after many attempts to install and run DII. I sent it off to be fixed,
> but it was not under warranty and it was going to cost too much to fix. I
> bought a burner to replace it.

Add Snooker to this list.  I terrible game with a terrible copy-protection
scheme-- what a waste.

Alanb

Alastair Ingra

To all suggesting people go buy a new CD-ROM to run N4:

by Alastair Ingra » Mon, 19 Feb 2001 07:52:55

I have never heard of "shelf life" for a CDR/RW drive. If you have a quality
CDR/RW drive, I see no reason to not use it. The problem is NOT with my
system. The problem is with the Sierra copy protection scheme. Otherwise,
how do you explain all the other folks, with all their different systems,
having problems with this? Besides, I only have two bays on my Dell box. One
is for the CDR/RW and the other is for my SB Live! control panel.

--
Alastair Ingram
www.saxlessons.com

> Just so I understand, the biggest reason folks are not being able to run
it
> is by running it in their cd-rw drives?
> I installed a Plextor 8/24/32 CD-RW several months ago, and not once
thought
> about using it as my primary cd-rom drive. I left my plain jane vanilla
> cd-rom drive in my machine for those purposes, cd-rw's tend to have a
shelf
> life anyways usually determined by the number of discs you burn - I don't
> want to be putting more wear on mine than necessary.
> I only use my Plextor for burning cd's, all my games and so forth go
through
> my regular cd-rom.
> I guess that's why I never have problems to date with the copy protection
> schemes.
> --
> Don Burnette



> > I have a "legit" CD key and I cannot play on line. I can't play at all!
It
> > might have worked for Half Life and Q3 but it doesn't work for N4.
Sierra
> > offers a 90 day money back guarantee which I am going to take advantage
of
> > and would suggest that everyone who cannot get the game to play, do the
> > same. I just bought my Yamaha CDR/RW a few months ago and I'm not about
to
> > buy another. There is nothing wrong with it, why should I replace it? It
> > will be a cold day in hell before Sierra sees any money from me.

> > --
> > Alastair Ingram
> > www.saxlessons.com


> > > You would be wrong, the game was sitting on the shelves before the
warez
> > > version of N4 was out.

> > > I love the whole cd-key scheme in games.  I wish more games would use
it
> > for
> > > online play.  I think that is a bigger stopper of piracy than
anything.

> > > Having to have a legit cd-key to play online is what causes alot of
> people
> > > to actually go out and buy a game. Half-Life and Q3 really showed
that.





> > > > > On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:25:33 GMT, "Marc Collins"

> > > > > >Aside from a big raspberry...

> > > > > >Two questions...

> > > > > >1) Do you think Sierra wants to employ a copy protection scheme
> that
> > > > > >prevents potential paying customers from running their
product...of
> > > > course
> > > > > >not.

> > > > > I think Sierra has to use stern copy-protection to -increase- the
> > > > > sales of their products. As the casula user copying technology
> > > > > increases with each new version of CloneCD, etc., they have to
> > > > > improve their copy-protection or lose sales.

> > > > Thats funny because the Warez groups I'm sure had the game out
before
> > > Sierra
> > > > even did.  This isn't any protection they can do that will protect
> their
> > > > software.  The ONLY thing they have limited is the ability to play
> > online,
> > > > and thats only due to the software key stored on their servers.

> > > > Although you can still play online other places besides Sierras
> servers.

Don Burnett

To all suggesting people go buy a new CD-ROM to run N4:

by Don Burnett » Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:17:34

Sure there is, just read any of the cd-rw forums and you'll see folks
talking about how many burns they hope to get out of their cd-rw's. Granted,
for us casual users it probably wouldn't mean a lot - but I still didn't
want to use my burner as my good ole day to day cd-rom.

--
Don Burnette


> I have never heard of "shelf life" for a CDR/RW drive. If you have a
quality
> CDR/RW drive, I see no reason to not use it. The problem is NOT with my
> system. The problem is with the Sierra copy protection scheme. Otherwise,
> how do you explain all the other folks, with all their different systems,
> having problems with this? Besides, I only have two bays on my Dell box.
One
> is for the CDR/RW and the other is for my SB Live! control panel.

> --
> Alastair Ingram
> www.saxlessons.com


> > Just so I understand, the biggest reason folks are not being able to run
> it
> > is by running it in their cd-rw drives?
> > I installed a Plextor 8/24/32 CD-RW several months ago, and not once
> thought
> > about using it as my primary cd-rom drive. I left my plain jane vanilla
> > cd-rom drive in my machine for those purposes, cd-rw's tend to have a
> shelf
> > life anyways usually determined by the number of discs you burn - I
don't
> > want to be putting more wear on mine than necessary.
> > I only use my Plextor for burning cd's, all my games and so forth go
> through
> > my regular cd-rom.
> > I guess that's why I never have problems to date with the copy
protection
> > schemes.
> > --
> > Don Burnette



> > > I have a "legit" CD key and I cannot play on line. I can't play at
all!
> It
> > > might have worked for Half Life and Q3 but it doesn't work for N4.
> Sierra
> > > offers a 90 day money back guarantee which I am going to take
advantage
> of
> > > and would suggest that everyone who cannot get the game to play, do
the
> > > same. I just bought my Yamaha CDR/RW a few months ago and I'm not
about
> to
> > > buy another. There is nothing wrong with it, why should I replace it?
It
> > > will be a cold day in hell before Sierra sees any money from me.

> > > --
> > > Alastair Ingram
> > > www.saxlessons.com


> > > > You would be wrong, the game was sitting on the shelves before the
> warez
> > > > version of N4 was out.

> > > > I love the whole cd-key scheme in games.  I wish more games would
use
> it
> > > for
> > > > online play.  I think that is a bigger stopper of piracy than
> anything.

> > > > Having to have a legit cd-key to play online is what causes alot of
> > people
> > > > to actually go out and buy a game. Half-Life and Q3 really showed
> that.





> > > > > > On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:25:33 GMT, "Marc Collins"

> > > > > > >Aside from a big raspberry...

> > > > > > >Two questions...

> > > > > > >1) Do you think Sierra wants to employ a copy protection scheme
> > that
> > > > > > >prevents potential paying customers from running their
> product...of
> > > > > course
> > > > > > >not.

> > > > > > I think Sierra has to use stern copy-protection to -increase-
the
> > > > > > sales of their products. As the casula user copying technology
> > > > > > increases with each new version of CloneCD, etc., they have to
> > > > > > improve their copy-protection or lose sales.

> > > > > Thats funny because the Warez groups I'm sure had the game out
> before
> > > > Sierra
> > > > > even did.  This isn't any protection they can do that will protect
> > their
> > > > > software.  The ONLY thing they have limited is the ability to play
> > > online,
> > > > > and thats only due to the software key stored on their servers.

> > > > > Although you can still play online other places besides Sierras
> > servers.

Simon Brow

To all suggesting people go buy a new CD-ROM to run N4:

by Simon Brow » Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:44:47

Seems publishers are trying to get their disks printed cheaper and cheaper
these days.  I had *two* copies of Tomb Raider 5 explode in the CD drive
after Christmas.  Could be something to do with the poor financial state of
the industry at the moment.


Cliff Roma

To all suggesting people go buy a new CD-ROM to run N4:

by Cliff Roma » Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:55:37

You are having a problem with the CD, not the cd-key

So saying that the cd-key does not work for Sierra has nothing to do with
your problem.

The cd-key portion of the program works perfectly, its the copy protection
on the CD itself that some people are having problems with


> I have a "legit" CD key and I cannot play on line. I can't play at all! It
> might have worked for Half Life and Q3 but it doesn't work for N4. Sierra
> offers a 90 day money back guarantee which I am going to take advantage of
> and would suggest that everyone who cannot get the game to play, do the
> same. I just bought my Yamaha CDR/RW a few months ago and I'm not about to
> buy another. There is nothing wrong with it, why should I replace it? It
> will be a cold day in hell before Sierra sees any money from me.

> --
> Alastair Ingram
> www.saxlessons.com


> > You would be wrong, the game was sitting on the shelves before the warez
> > version of N4 was out.

> > I love the whole cd-key scheme in games.  I wish more games would use it
> for
> > online play.  I think that is a bigger stopper of piracy than anything.

> > Having to have a legit cd-key to play online is what causes alot of
people
> > to actually go out and buy a game. Half-Life and Q3 really showed that.





> > > > On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:25:33 GMT, "Marc Collins"

> > > > >Aside from a big raspberry...

> > > > >Two questions...

> > > > >1) Do you think Sierra wants to employ a copy protection scheme
that
> > > > >prevents potential paying customers from running their product...of
> > > course
> > > > >not.

> > > > I think Sierra has to use stern copy-protection to -increase- the
> > > > sales of their products. As the casula user copying technology
> > > > increases with each new version of CloneCD, etc., they have to
> > > > improve their copy-protection or lose sales.

> > > Thats funny because the Warez groups I'm sure had the game out before
> > Sierra
> > > even did.  This isn't any protection they can do that will protect
their
> > > software.  The ONLY thing they have limited is the ability to play
> online,
> > > and thats only due to the software key stored on their servers.

> > > Although you can still play online other places besides Sierras
servers.


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