rec.autos.simulators

OT: Bang for the Buck - Sim Upgrade?

Mike Beaucham

OT: Bang for the Buck - Sim Upgrade?

by Mike Beaucham » Fri, 20 Sep 2002 07:59:42

Hey all..
If I have a few hundred dollars to burn, what would be a good upgrade do you
think? Sort of offtopic, but I'm sure some others would be interested in the
answers. Especially since it would sort of show what is the most important
thing to spend money on.

My current setup is:
Athlon 1700+ XP
Radeon 7500 64MB DDR.
17" Monitor
256MB PC133 RAM.
Thrustmaster/Guillemot Ferrari FF Wheel.

I don't have any problems with my wheel, but I would really like a new set
of pedals maybe even with a clutch. A new shifter isn't really important to
me since I play mainly rally games, so the sequential shifter or the paddles
is fine enough.

Some new DDR RAM (which I can also fit on my mobo) would be a nice upgrade
too, and would probably benefit in performance over the current PC133 ram.

A new video card maybe? Although I'm still happy with my current one..

A bigger monitor? Does a 21" monitor really help? I'd assume it would with
sense of speed, and you could probably run wider FOV in GPL maybe?

A new processor?

So basically, if I could swap out any part of my system for a newer one (as
a treat to myself) which should it be (in terms of bang for the buck)? Also,
I only have a 20GIG hard drive.. maybe a new harddrive would be a priority?

Mike
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Schoone

OT: Bang for the Buck - Sim Upgrade?

by Schoone » Fri, 20 Sep 2002 08:14:00

I'd go for a new video card, either the 8500LE or a 9700 if you have the
money and maybe a new monitor.
Processor looks pretty good and I'd doubt you would see a noticeable
difference with DDR ram over PC133.  Maybe add another 256.


GBB

OT: Bang for the Buck - Sim Upgrade?

by GBB » Fri, 20 Sep 2002 08:53:27


You would definatly see a fps increase going to DDR, with your prosseser SDR
will be a bit of a bottleneck.

You'd see a large performance increase with a move up to an 8500 or a
Geforce 4. The 4200 offers very good bang for buck and if you're just
looking for one upgrade I'd go for that.

I doubt it'd make you go faster, but bigger is always better.

At the moment I wouldn't bother, wait until the Thoroughbred 2400+ and 2600+
are out or a bit longer for a Hammer.

priority?

As long as you're not struggling for space don't bother with a new
harddrive, Serial ATA is on the way, IDE is on the way out, it's not the
best time to invest in a new HD.

I'd say get 256-512mb of cas2 PC2100 DDR and a 128mb Geforce 4200.

- Show quoted text -

Mike Beaucham

OT: Bang for the Buck - Sim Upgrade?

by Mike Beaucham » Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:45:05

Awesome.. thanks for the advice. It also helps me to figure out what I
should concentrate on spending the most money on when I build a new system,
or systems for other people.

Mike
http://mikebeauchamp.com


> I'd go for a new video card, either the 8500LE or a 9700 if you have the
> money and maybe a new monitor.
> Processor looks pretty good and I'd doubt you would see a noticeable
> difference with DDR ram over PC133.  Maybe add another 256.



> > Hey all..
> > If I have a few hundred dollars to burn, what would be a good upgrade do
> you
> > think? Sort of offtopic, but I'm sure some others would be interested in
> the
> > answers. Especially since it would sort of show what is the most
important
> > thing to spend money on.

> > My current setup is:
> > Athlon 1700+ XP
> > Radeon 7500 64MB DDR.
> > 17" Monitor
> > 256MB PC133 RAM.
> > Thrustmaster/Guillemot Ferrari FF Wheel.

> > I don't have any problems with my wheel, but I would really like a new
set
> > of pedals maybe even with a clutch. A new shifter isn't really important
> to
> > me since I play mainly rally games, so the sequential shifter or the
> paddles
> > is fine enough.

> > Some new DDR RAM (which I can also fit on my mobo) would be a nice
upgrade
> > too, and would probably benefit in performance over the current PC133
ram.

> > A new video card maybe? Although I'm still happy with my current one..

> > A bigger monitor? Does a 21" monitor really help? I'd assume it would
with
> > sense of speed, and you could probably run wider FOV in GPL maybe?

> > A new processor?

> > So basically, if I could swap out any part of my system for a newer one
> (as
> > a treat to myself) which should it be (in terms of bang for the buck)?
> Also,
> > I only have a 20GIG hard drive.. maybe a new harddrive would be a
> priority?

> > Mike
> > http://mikebeauchamp.com

Mike Beaucham

OT: Bang for the Buck - Sim Upgrade?

by Mike Beaucham » Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:46:31

Makes sense to me.. good call on the processor. Although, It might be good
to wait until the new generation of chips come out, so I can score a 2200+XP
for cheap.

Mike
http://mikebeauchamp.com




> > Hey all..
> > If I have a few hundred dollars to burn, what would be a good upgrade do
> you
> > think? Sort of offtopic, but I'm sure some others would be interested in
> the
> > answers. Especially since it would sort of show what is the most
important
> > thing to spend money on.

> > My current setup is:
> > Athlon 1700+ XP
> > Radeon 7500 64MB DDR.
> > 17" Monitor
> > 256MB PC133 RAM.
> > Thrustmaster/Guillemot Ferrari FF Wheel.

> > I don't have any problems with my wheel, but I would really like a new
set
> > of pedals maybe even with a clutch. A new shifter isn't really important
> to
> > me since I play mainly rally games, so the sequential shifter or the
> paddles
> > is fine enough.

> > Some new DDR RAM (which I can also fit on my mobo) would be a nice
upgrade
> > too, and would probably benefit in performance over the current PC133
ram.

> You would definatly see a fps increase going to DDR, with your prosseser
SDR
> will be a bit of a bottleneck.

> > A new video card maybe? Although I'm still happy with my current one..

> You'd see a large performance increase with a move up to an 8500 or a
> Geforce 4. The 4200 offers very good bang for buck and if you're just
> looking for one upgrade I'd go for that.

> > A bigger monitor? Does a 21" monitor really help? I'd assume it would
with
> > sense of speed, and you could probably run wider FOV in GPL maybe?

> I doubt it'd make you go faster, but bigger is always better.

> > A new processor?

> At the moment I wouldn't bother, wait until the Thoroughbred 2400+ and
2600+
> are out or a bit longer for a Hammer.

> > So basically, if I could swap out any part of my system for a newer one
> (as
> > a treat to myself) which should it be (in terms of bang for the buck)?
> Also,
> > I only have a 20GIG hard drive.. maybe a new harddrive would be a
> priority?

> As long as you're not struggling for space don't bother with a new
> harddrive, Serial ATA is on the way, IDE is on the way out, it's not the
> best time to invest in a new HD.

> I'd say get 256-512mb of cas2 PC2100 DDR and a 128mb Geforce 4200.

> > Mike
> > http://mikebeauchamp.com

MadDAW

OT: Bang for the Buck - Sim Upgrade?

by MadDAW » Fri, 20 Sep 2002 19:38:12


Newegg has a retail boxed xp2100 for $138 with free shipping. :)

MadDAWG

GBB

OT: Bang for the Buck - Sim Upgrade?

by GBB » Fri, 20 Sep 2002 22:31:27

You can now, I've got a XP1600 running at 2200+ speed, 1836Mhz Prime95
stable and that's at default voltage :-)


Schoone

OT: Bang for the Buck - Sim Upgrade?

by Schoone » Fri, 20 Sep 2002 23:04:27

What are you using for cooling at what settings are you using?
What temps do you run under idle/load?


> You can now, I've got a XP1600 running at 2200+ speed, 1836Mhz Prime95
> stable and that's at default voltage :-)



> > Makes sense to me.. good call on the processor. Although, It might be
good
> > to wait until the new generation of chips come out, so I can score a
> 2200+XP
> > for cheap.

> > Mike
> > http://mikebeauchamp.com

Tim Mise

OT: Bang for the Buck - Sim Upgrade?

by Tim Mise » Sat, 21 Sep 2002 02:24:17

The XP 2600's will be out around the first week of October.  Prices will
start about $300 but should go down quick.  It is significant because
depending on your MB, it may be the last processor only upgrade you could go
without changing motherboards since the XP 2700's will require a 333 MHz
FSB.

-Tim


Larr

OT: Bang for the Buck - Sim Upgrade?

by Larr » Sat, 21 Sep 2002 04:33:01

First - Newer, faster hard drive.  20GB drives are slow compared to today's
7200 RPM drives with the data densities they are running...  The Maxtor
Diamondmax Plus 7200 RPM 80GB D740 drives are around $100 these days.

If you buy a drive, make sure you do it before October 1st.  Most major
manufacturers are dropping their multi-year warranties and going to
consumer-screwing 1 year warranties starting October 1st...  Check the box!

I find it fishy that they all did it at exactly the same time.

Second - DDR Memory.

Last - Video Card.  However, your processor can't feed today's
top-of-the-line cards sufficiently so you won't see all the benifit
available.  My Athlon XP 1800+ can't feed my GeForce 4 Ti4400 fully, and the
processor is my current hold-back.

-Larry


bertr

OT: Bang for the Buck - Sim Upgrade?

by bertr » Sat, 21 Sep 2002 10:39:58

Curious -- On a given system, how can you tell what the bottleneck is between
videocard and CPU?  (I have an Athlon XP1700 and radeon 8500LE.)

Thanks,
Bert


> First - Newer, faster hard drive.  20GB drives are slow compared to today's
> 7200 RPM drives with the data densities they are running...  The Maxtor
> Diamondmax Plus 7200 RPM 80GB D740 drives are around $100 these days.

> If you buy a drive, make sure you do it before October 1st.  Most major
> manufacturers are dropping their multi-year warranties and going to
> consumer-screwing 1 year warranties starting October 1st...  Check the box!

> I find it fishy that they all did it at exactly the same time.

> Second - DDR Memory.

> Last - Video Card.  However, your processor can't feed today's
> top-of-the-line cards sufficiently so you won't see all the benifit
> available.  My Athlon XP 1800+ can't feed my GeForce 4 Ti4400 fully, and the
> processor is my current hold-back.

> -Larry



> > Hey all..
> > If I have a few hundred dollars to burn, what would be a good upgrade do
> you
> > think? Sort of offtopic, but I'm sure some others would be interested in
> the
> > answers. Especially since it would sort of show what is the most important
> > thing to spend money on.

> > My current setup is:
> > Athlon 1700+ XP
> > Radeon 7500 64MB DDR.
> > 17" Monitor
> > 256MB PC133 RAM.
> > Thrustmaster/Guillemot Ferrari FF Wheel.

> > I don't have any problems with my wheel, but I would really like a new set
> > of pedals maybe even with a clutch. A new shifter isn't really important
> to
> > me since I play mainly rally games, so the sequential shifter or the
> paddles
> > is fine enough.

> > Some new DDR RAM (which I can also fit on my mobo) would be a nice upgrade
> > too, and would probably benefit in performance over the current PC133 ram.

> > A new video card maybe? Although I'm still happy with my current one..

> > A bigger monitor? Does a 21" monitor really help? I'd assume it would with
> > sense of speed, and you could probably run wider FOV in GPL maybe?

> > A new processor?

> > So basically, if I could swap out any part of my system for a newer one
> (as
> > a treat to myself) which should it be (in terms of bang for the buck)?
> Also,
> > I only have a 20GIG hard drive.. maybe a new harddrive would be a
> priority?

> > Mike
> > http://mikebeauchamp.com

Tim Mise

OT: Bang for the Buck - Sim Upgrade?

by Tim Mise » Sat, 21 Sep 2002 11:28:15

This can vary depending on the game but here is an example of benchmark of
the same game & settings but only changing the resolution & the video card:

XP 1900+ with Original Radeon
640x480        75 fps  <-- Video card bottleneck
800x600        54 fps  <-- Video card bottleneck
1024x768      35 fps  <-- Video card bottleneck
1600x1200    24 fps  <-- Video card bottleneck

XP 1900+ with Radeon 9700Pro
640x480     130 fps  <-- CPU bottleneck
800x600     128 fps  <-- CPU bottleneck
1024x768   125 fps  <-- CPU bottleneck
1600x1200 108 fps  <-- CPU bottleneck

-Tim


> Curious -- On a given system, how can you tell what the bottleneck is
between
> videocard and CPU?  (I have an Athlon XP1700 and radeon 8500LE.)

> Thanks,
> Bert


> > First - Newer, faster hard drive.  20GB drives are slow compared to
today's
> > 7200 RPM drives with the data densities they are running...  The Maxtor
> > Diamondmax Plus 7200 RPM 80GB D740 drives are around $100 these days.

> > If you buy a drive, make sure you do it before October 1st.  Most major
> > manufacturers are dropping their multi-year warranties and going to
> > consumer-screwing 1 year warranties starting October 1st...  Check the
box!

> > I find it fishy that they all did it at exactly the same time.

> > Second - DDR Memory.

> > Last - Video Card.  However, your processor can't feed today's
> > top-of-the-line cards sufficiently so you won't see all the benifit
> > available.  My Athlon XP 1800+ can't feed my GeForce 4 Ti4400 fully, and
the
> > processor is my current hold-back.

> > -Larry



> > > Hey all..
> > > If I have a few hundred dollars to burn, what would be a good upgrade
do
> > you
> > > think? Sort of offtopic, but I'm sure some others would be interested
in
> > the
> > > answers. Especially since it would sort of show what is the most
important
> > > thing to spend money on.

> > > My current setup is:
> > > Athlon 1700+ XP
> > > Radeon 7500 64MB DDR.
> > > 17" Monitor
> > > 256MB PC133 RAM.
> > > Thrustmaster/Guillemot Ferrari FF Wheel.

> > > I don't have any problems with my wheel, but I would really like a new
set
> > > of pedals maybe even with a clutch. A new shifter isn't really
important
> > to
> > > me since I play mainly rally games, so the sequential shifter or the
> > paddles
> > > is fine enough.

> > > Some new DDR RAM (which I can also fit on my mobo) would be a nice
upgrade
> > > too, and would probably benefit in performance over the current PC133
ram.

> > > A new video card maybe? Although I'm still happy with my current one..

> > > A bigger monitor? Does a 21" monitor really help? I'd assume it would
with
> > > sense of speed, and you could probably run wider FOV in GPL maybe?

> > > A new processor?

> > > So basically, if I could swap out any part of my system for a newer
one
> > (as
> > > a treat to myself) which should it be (in terms of bang for the buck)?
> > Also,
> > > I only have a 20GIG hard drive.. maybe a new harddrive would be a
> > priority?

> > > Mike
> > > http://mikebeauchamp.com

Larr

OT: Bang for the Buck - Sim Upgrade?

by Larr » Sun, 22 Sep 2002 02:44:48

Works for me!

-Larry


> This can vary depending on the game but here is an example of benchmark of
> the same game & settings but only changing the resolution & the video
card:

> XP 1900+ with Original Radeon
> 640x480        75 fps  <-- Video card bottleneck
> 800x600        54 fps  <-- Video card bottleneck
> 1024x768      35 fps  <-- Video card bottleneck
> 1600x1200    24 fps  <-- Video card bottleneck

> XP 1900+ with Radeon 9700Pro
> 640x480     130 fps  <-- CPU bottleneck
> 800x600     128 fps  <-- CPU bottleneck
> 1024x768   125 fps  <-- CPU bottleneck
> 1600x1200 108 fps  <-- CPU bottleneck

> -Tim



> > Curious -- On a given system, how can you tell what the bottleneck is
> between
> > videocard and CPU?  (I have an Athlon XP1700 and radeon 8500LE.)

> > Thanks,
> > Bert


> > > First - Newer, faster hard drive.  20GB drives are slow compared to
> today's
> > > 7200 RPM drives with the data densities they are running...  The
Maxtor
> > > Diamondmax Plus 7200 RPM 80GB D740 drives are around $100 these days.

> > > If you buy a drive, make sure you do it before October 1st.  Most
major
> > > manufacturers are dropping their multi-year warranties and going to
> > > consumer-screwing 1 year warranties starting October 1st...  Check the
> box!

> > > I find it fishy that they all did it at exactly the same time.

> > > Second - DDR Memory.

> > > Last - Video Card.  However, your processor can't feed today's
> > > top-of-the-line cards sufficiently so you won't see all the benifit
> > > available.  My Athlon XP 1800+ can't feed my GeForce 4 Ti4400 fully,
and
> the
> > > processor is my current hold-back.

> > > -Larry



> > > > Hey all..
> > > > If I have a few hundred dollars to burn, what would be a good
upgrade
> do
> > > you
> > > > think? Sort of offtopic, but I'm sure some others would be
interested
> in
> > > the
> > > > answers. Especially since it would sort of show what is the most
> important
> > > > thing to spend money on.

> > > > My current setup is:
> > > > Athlon 1700+ XP
> > > > Radeon 7500 64MB DDR.
> > > > 17" Monitor
> > > > 256MB PC133 RAM.
> > > > Thrustmaster/Guillemot Ferrari FF Wheel.

> > > > I don't have any problems with my wheel, but I would really like a
new
> set
> > > > of pedals maybe even with a clutch. A new shifter isn't really
> important
> > > to
> > > > me since I play mainly rally games, so the sequential shifter or the
> > > paddles
> > > > is fine enough.

> > > > Some new DDR RAM (which I can also fit on my mobo) would be a nice
> upgrade
> > > > too, and would probably benefit in performance over the current
PC133
> ram.

> > > > A new video card maybe? Although I'm still happy with my current
one..

> > > > A bigger monitor? Does a 21" monitor really help? I'd assume it
would
> with
> > > > sense of speed, and you could probably run wider FOV in GPL maybe?

> > > > A new processor?

> > > > So basically, if I could swap out any part of my system for a newer
> one
> > > (as
> > > > a treat to myself) which should it be (in terms of bang for the
buck)?
> > > Also,
> > > > I only have a 20GIG hard drive.. maybe a new harddrive would be a
> > > priority?

> > > > Mike
> > > > http://mikebeauchamp.com

Larr

OT: Bang for the Buck - Sim Upgrade?

by Larr » Sun, 22 Sep 2002 02:44:11

Just experience with all the hardware over many years :)

It's not an exact science.

-Larry


> Curious -- On a given system, how can you tell what the bottleneck is
between
> videocard and CPU?  (I have an Athlon XP1700 and radeon 8500LE.)

> Thanks,
> Bert


> > First - Newer, faster hard drive.  20GB drives are slow compared to
today's
> > 7200 RPM drives with the data densities they are running...  The Maxtor
> > Diamondmax Plus 7200 RPM 80GB D740 drives are around $100 these days.

> > If you buy a drive, make sure you do it before October 1st.  Most major
> > manufacturers are dropping their multi-year warranties and going to
> > consumer-screwing 1 year warranties starting October 1st...  Check the
box!

> > I find it fishy that they all did it at exactly the same time.

> > Second - DDR Memory.

> > Last - Video Card.  However, your processor can't feed today's
> > top-of-the-line cards sufficiently so you won't see all the benifit
> > available.  My Athlon XP 1800+ can't feed my GeForce 4 Ti4400 fully, and
the
> > processor is my current hold-back.

> > -Larry



> > > Hey all..
> > > If I have a few hundred dollars to burn, what would be a good upgrade
do
> > you
> > > think? Sort of offtopic, but I'm sure some others would be interested
in
> > the
> > > answers. Especially since it would sort of show what is the most
important
> > > thing to spend money on.

> > > My current setup is:
> > > Athlon 1700+ XP
> > > Radeon 7500 64MB DDR.
> > > 17" Monitor
> > > 256MB PC133 RAM.
> > > Thrustmaster/Guillemot Ferrari FF Wheel.

> > > I don't have any problems with my wheel, but I would really like a new
set
> > > of pedals maybe even with a clutch. A new shifter isn't really
important
> > to
> > > me since I play mainly rally games, so the sequential shifter or the
> > paddles
> > > is fine enough.

> > > Some new DDR RAM (which I can also fit on my mobo) would be a nice
upgrade
> > > too, and would probably benefit in performance over the current PC133
ram.

> > > A new video card maybe? Although I'm still happy with my current one..

> > > A bigger monitor? Does a 21" monitor really help? I'd assume it would
with
> > > sense of speed, and you could probably run wider FOV in GPL maybe?

> > > A new processor?

> > > So basically, if I could swap out any part of my system for a newer
one
> > (as
> > > a treat to myself) which should it be (in terms of bang for the buck)?
> > Also,
> > > I only have a 20GIG hard drive.. maybe a new harddrive would be a
> > priority?

> > > Mike
> > > http://mikebeauchamp.com

bertr

OT: Bang for the Buck - Sim Upgrade?

by bertr » Sun, 22 Sep 2002 06:05:34

So, I guess what you're saying is that the only way to see what the bottleneck
is, is to try a faster videocard and note the difference in framerate.  Then go
back to the original videocard and upgrade the processor and again note the
difference in framerate.  Then pick the one that gives you the biggest jump.
That seems like an expensive proposition to me, since you need both a new
videocard and a new processor to conduct that experiment.

I guess then  that there's no simple way of deciding _before_ investing in
either a new CPU or a new videocard?

(Not trying to be difficult, but I was hoping to find a more direct way to
determine which one to upgrade).

In a related matter -- I have an Epox 8Kha+ Mobo.  Does anyone know where I can
find out the fastest processor it presently supports (or will support in the
future?  A url or newsgroup, perhaps?

Thanks!

Bert


> This can vary depending on the game but here is an example of benchmark of
> the same game & settings but only changing the resolution & the video card:

> XP 1900+ with Original Radeon
> 640x480        75 fps  <-- Video card bottleneck
> 800x600        54 fps  <-- Video card bottleneck
> 1024x768      35 fps  <-- Video card bottleneck
> 1600x1200    24 fps  <-- Video card bottleneck

> XP 1900+ with Radeon 9700Pro
> 640x480     130 fps  <-- CPU bottleneck
> 800x600     128 fps  <-- CPU bottleneck
> 1024x768   125 fps  <-- CPU bottleneck
> 1600x1200 108 fps  <-- CPU bottleneck

> -Tim



> > Curious -- On a given system, how can you tell what the bottleneck is
> between
> > videocard and CPU?  (I have an Athlon XP1700 and radeon 8500LE.)

> > Thanks,
> > Bert


> > > First - Newer, faster hard drive.  20GB drives are slow compared to
> today's
> > > 7200 RPM drives with the data densities they are running...  The Maxtor
> > > Diamondmax Plus 7200 RPM 80GB D740 drives are around $100 these days.

> > > If you buy a drive, make sure you do it before October 1st.  Most major
> > > manufacturers are dropping their multi-year warranties and going to
> > > consumer-screwing 1 year warranties starting October 1st...  Check the
> box!

> > > I find it fishy that they all did it at exactly the same time.

> > > Second - DDR Memory.

> > > Last - Video Card.  However, your processor can't feed today's
> > > top-of-the-line cards sufficiently so you won't see all the benifit
> > > available.  My Athlon XP 1800+ can't feed my GeForce 4 Ti4400 fully, and
> the
> > > processor is my current hold-back.

> > > -Larry



> > > > Hey all..
> > > > If I have a few hundred dollars to burn, what would be a good upgrade
> do
> > > you
> > > > think? Sort of offtopic, but I'm sure some others would be interested
> in
> > > the
> > > > answers. Especially since it would sort of show what is the most
> important
> > > > thing to spend money on.

> > > > My current setup is:
> > > > Athlon 1700+ XP
> > > > Radeon 7500 64MB DDR.
> > > > 17" Monitor
> > > > 256MB PC133 RAM.
> > > > Thrustmaster/Guillemot Ferrari FF Wheel.

> > > > I don't have any problems with my wheel, but I would really like a new
> set
> > > > of pedals maybe even with a clutch. A new shifter isn't really
> important
> > > to
> > > > me since I play mainly rally games, so the sequential shifter or the
> > > paddles
> > > > is fine enough.

> > > > Some new DDR RAM (which I can also fit on my mobo) would be a nice
> upgrade
> > > > too, and would probably benefit in performance over the current PC133
> ram.

> > > > A new video card maybe? Although I'm still happy with my current one..

> > > > A bigger monitor? Does a 21" monitor really help? I'd assume it would
> with
> > > > sense of speed, and you could probably run wider FOV in GPL maybe?

> > > > A new processor?

> > > > So basically, if I could swap out any part of my system for a newer
> one
> > > (as
> > > > a treat to myself) which should it be (in terms of bang for the buck)?
> > > Also,
> > > > I only have a 20GIG hard drive.. maybe a new harddrive would be a
> > > priority?

> > > > Mike
> > > > http://mikebeauchamp.com


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