rec.autos.simulators

by **FWS** » Mon, 21 Sep 1998 04:00:00

The only contenders for closed wheel racing sim-games seem to be TOCA
and Nascar.

WHich one should I go for?

by **DPHI** » Mon, 21 Sep 1998 04:00:00

It all depends on what "floats your boat". If you like ovals, go with N2, but
if road racing is your thing, try TOCA. Personally, I've spent many more hours
on TOCA than NASCAR2.

-don

"To race is to live, everything else is just waiting." - Rudi Caracciola

by **Paul Jone** » Tue, 22 Sep 1998 04:00:00

There both good, actually very good. TOCA is my personal favorite because
I'm not a great fan of ovals and the Nascars don't handle too well on
road circuits,
Paul

by Me » Tue, 22 Sep 1998 04:00:00

toca is an arcade/sim hybrid. NASCAR2 was a top of the notch sim when it
came out, but it a lil outdated on the physics side of it, but is still a
top sim. I have both, and if i hadto sell one toca would be gone b4 i even
thought about nascar2

>The only contenders for closed wheel racing sim-games seem to be TOCA
>and Nascar.

>WHich one should I go for?

by **Jan Koh** » Tue, 22 Sep 1998 04:00:00

If you go to The Pits (http://www.theuspits.com), you can get a touring car
patch for NASCAR2...as well as a patch to replicate 1970s NASCAR cars.
TOCA, while good, is a little lacking in the AI department. I've got both...

Cheers!

--

??Jan Kohl?? **The Pits Performance Team**
Computer Systems Programmer
USAF Air-Ground Operations School
Hurlburt Field, FL

Castle Graphics - http://www.castlegraphics.com/
The Pits - http://www.theuspits.com/

by **Bren** » Tue, 22 Sep 1998 04:00:00

Go for both. Nascar is much more of a true sim, but the AI isn't as good as
TOCA. Toca has sim qualities and is fun to race the computer drivers. I
have them both and like them very much.

>The only contenders for closed wheel racing sim-games seem to be TOCA
>and Nascar.

>WHich one should I go for?

by **Peter Gag** » Tue, 22 Sep 1998 04:00:00

> The only contenders for closed wheel racing sim-games seem to be
> TOCA
> and Nascar.

> WHich one should I go for?

What about Network Q RAC Rally (or the newer version
International Rally Championship)? or how about Colin MaCrae Rally?

Or if you are looking at TOCa (which isn't a true sim?) how about
Motorhead or Screamer Rally?

8-)

*Peter* 8-)
(NB: remove asterix to e-mail)

by **Paul Jone** » Thu, 24 Sep 1998 04:00:00

The Touring Car patch for N2 doesn't give you a Touring Car. They handle way different. Also
they race way different and the AI cars in TOCA though as flawed as any AI cars in any sim/game
does model the crash-bash, door-handle wrestling, etc nature of TC racing - see
http://www.tpjones.demon.co.uk/tugn1_6.htm
for an opinion of the AI in TOCA by a real TC racer.
N2 does not. If you want NASCAR racing get N2 (or N3) if you want Touring Car racing get TOCA
(or TOCA2),
Paul

by **ymenar** » Thu, 24 Sep 1998 04:00:00

Brent wrote

Nascar Racing 2 has the most realistic AI ever made...

So realistic they are called humans...

http://www.nros.com/

;-)

(heh I just invented a good add for the NROS)

- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard!
- Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
- Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking)
- Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ on the NROS
- "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

by **Jan Koh** » Sun, 27 Sep 1998 04:00:00

While I agree that the AI in TOCA do race each OTHER hard, which has long been a
complaint with all the Papyrus sims, and there is nothing that us at The Pits or
anyone else can do about that...it's Papyrus' poor 'crash model' that is at fault...their
AI are not allowed to hit each other unless one of them spins. This is partially because
you are using an AI model which is basically unchanged from it's original 1992? ICR1 game,
which at the time couldn't handle indepth AI intelligence. And contact with other
cars hitting each other will have a major factor in what happens in a race.

However, as far as human vs. AI, IMHO our latest AI is some of the most accurate AI
developed, I've had AI cars tap me in the rear and spin me out in corners, block me,
take up as much of the track as possible, race me on the outside of the corner, I
even had one incident where I hit a car in the rear in one corner, and passed him,
the next corner he rammed me in the rear and spun me out! (Revenge?) ;]
If you would like to see some of the latest we've worked on, download Dusen-ring
from the TPTCC page (or I can send you some from a specific track). We will be
releasing all this AI in a future patch. As well, we've fixed problems with AI cars
outbraking or outaccellerating the human car, the performance values are very close.

As far as the handling issue, most of that is setup. True, we're using a game engine
that simulates 700 hp vs 300 hp, and 3500 lbs vs 2000 lbs, but I noticed no major
differences between my setups and the TOCA 'generic' setup...most of that due to
the fact that most of my setups have extremely stiff shock/spring settings. If you run
soft settings, of course you will get the impression that you are wallowing in a 'Yank tank'.
However, what you may not realize is that we did comparative power to weight ratios
on stockcars vs touring cars even before we started this patch to see if it was going
to be effective. If you divide the overall weight by the hp, you'll find that the US stockcar
and the touring car have a very close power-to-weight ratio. What does that mean?
That accelleration is going to be very close, and the rest of the simulation all deals
with chassis. Braking is the only other advantage, and this is one that real touring cars
probably hold over the US stock cars, however, with my stiff spring settings, I noticed
no major differences between my setups and the TOCA generic setup.

The other major flaw with TOCA besides the stackup problem is it's inaccurate modeling
of some of the tracks. Brands Hatch feels like the Baja 500 rather than a touring car
race, I know, I've got all the Brands Hatch races recorded on video over the last 2 years.
It's not near as rough as they make out. As well, the damage model and the cars bouncing
up in the air also turn it more into an arcade rather than realism. That is one area that
Papy's sim shines, the damage model is fairly consistent and fairly accurate.

All in all, I like both, but prefer the TPTCC over TOCA as far as realism. If only we could
put together Brands Hatch, it would be great. And beings we have many touring car fans
in the TPTCC league, I'm not the only one holding that opinion....

Cheers!

--

??Jan Kohl?? **The Pits Performance Team**
Computer Systems Programmer
USAF Air-Ground Operations School
Hurlburt Field, FL

Castle Graphics - http://www.castlegraphics.com/
The Pits - http://www.theuspits.com/

by **Zonk** » Tue, 29 Sep 1998 04:00:00

>The other major flaw with TOCA besides the stackup problem is it's inaccurate
> modeling
>of some of the tracks. Brands Hatch feels like the Baja 500 rather than a
> touring car
>race, I know, I've got all the Brands Hatch races recorded on video over the
> last 2 years.
>It's not near as rough as they make out.

Rubbish. I've been to 5 races at brands this year, and two TOCA meetings and
it is that seriously bumpy.

It's also considerably steeper IRL, too.

Z.

PS: Silverstone is the worst modelled track in TOCA. (The Chicane after the
hairpin is GP circuit only, not in the International Circuit.)

by **Paul Jone** » Wed, 30 Sep 1998 04:00:00

Brilliant reply Jan.
I drove at Brands Hatch on Tuesday in a Formula First (a 1600 single seater) so I can tell you from
first hand what the track is like.
My major complaint about TOCA's mapping of Brands is that the track seems wider in reality than in
the program, especially Druids and Cooper Straight. It's hard to convert 1:1 because in a real car
you can see the track all around you not just in the 17 inch square immediately in front of you.
Also, and obviously, the g-forces are quite severe in a real car and you can feel the track - this is
out of TOCA's hands (even FF will make no difference here).
The curbs seem much narrower and less steep in reality - everyone drives over them. The adverse
camber and gradient at Paddock is pretty well mapped. What you don't get is the scariness - man, that
hill is very steep and scary at speed and you don't get the idea properly either as a spectator, from
a video or from TOCA. In TOCA with a lot of practice you can take Paddock flat out in 6th gear
without braking beforehand - I don't know whether this is possible in reality, but nobody in their
right mind would attempt this. All the Touring Car events (indeed all events) I've ever witnessed at
Brands (my local major track) have the cars braking on entry to this one - if you going to lose it at
Brands this is the corner you most likely to do it on. Druids seems pretty realistic as does Graham
Hill and Surtees. McClaren to Clearways is an uphill section which seems to be almost completely flat
in TOCA, and the top straight goes downhill from Clearways rather than uphill as the program
suggests.
I may appear to be very critical of TOCA's representation of Brands, but actually I think they
haven't done too badly. You certainly get the feel of a short tight circuit with lots of tight,
technical corners. All sims have an awesome problem of mapping reality to a flat screen. TOCA seems
to have a slight fish-eye effect and the relative size of the car seems large. This seems to
compensate for the vision problem quite well - after all they have to resort to optical illusions.
TOCA 2 will have wide-screen format which will help some. A beef I have with Nascar is that the
***pit leaves only a tiny amount of the screen available for the track ahead. This may have the
relative sizes of track to***pit correctly mapped but then it's all shoved inside a monitor so you
get to see a small bit of track. In a TC and I imagine a Stock Car you get to "see" a lot more
because of how you focus and because you look at it direct and not through a screen.Better would be
to have a cardboard surround with a***pit painted on it which you stick around the monitor. Then
you show only track and instruments. TOCA's bonnet-cam works well - it's both more and less realistic
at the same time. Basically, it's an impossible problem.
Paul

by **Paul Jone** » Wed, 30 Sep 1998 04:00:00

> Nascar Racing 2 has the most realistic AI ever made...

> So realistic they are called humans...

Very true. That's the problem with all sims. The only opposition that is going
to get your heart beating is a human. Even if AI cars in a sim get better than
people it will never be as much fun as racing a human. It's the same with
anything, chess, backgammon, etc etc. Humans are the only meaningful oppostion.

Paul

by **Paul Jone** » Wed, 30 Sep 1998 04:00:00

> PS: Silverstone is the worst modelled track in TOCA. (The Chicane after the
> hairpin is GP circuit only, not in the International Circuit.)

Is that true? You mean the two mild corners between Farm and Bridge don't exist - I've never been to
Silverstone IRL but my 1996 map has them in. Maybe they've remodelled it.
Paul

by **Zonk** » Wed, 30 Sep 1998 04:00:00

>> PS: Silverstone is the worst modelled track in TOCA. (The Chicane after the
>> hairpin is GP circuit only, not in the International Circuit.)

>Is that true? You mean the two mild corners between Farm and Bridge don't exist
> - I've never been to
>Silverstone IRL but my 1996 map has them in. Maybe they've remodelled it.
>Paul

International circuit was first created in i think 1996?. Till then the BTCC
and F3 etc, tended to alternate between the GP and the club circuit (Beckets
to Brooklands).

The Newer International goes from Beckets, to a hairpin at Abbey.

http://www.silverstone-circuit.co.uk/pics/gp97-map.zip

is the gp circuit...

http://www.btcc.co.uk/circuits/silverst.htm

is the International.

You can see on the international, they straight line out of abbey and continue
under Farm Bridge, with out the left right kink that features on the GP
Circuit.

( the path of the international is shown in grey.)

That said the two corners between Abbey and Farm Bridge do exist, just that
make up the GP circuit, and not the international. They are coned off on
racedays.

Z.

rec.autos.simulators

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