rec.autos.simulators

Suppose now that the textures need to powers of two width and height. (I
can't recall for certain that this is a requirement of 3Dfx, but I
thought it was.) Now, you're looking at very expensive artwork changes,
which drives the breakeven point towards 100,000 units. An unrealistic
goal, IMO.

Plus, everyone that you have working on 3Dfx N2 is by definition not
working on the future of your company.

N2 is done. Accept and buy it for what it is, or don't.

---Jim
PS: Everytime I take an unpopular stance, I get flamed by people who
presume I still work for Papy. I don't. My opinions are my own, and they
tend to be pro-Papy, but not because of any financial interest.

Is this the leason they learned after porting Nascar 1 to at least a hlf dozen
specialty boards?

I mean it was done, but Papy still wanted to port it. The biggest pisser is
that they were wasting their time porting to lame arse boards then. At least
the voodoo is a legitmate (now Riva too) board to port to. Again Dana brought
up a D3D version which makes sense (possible GL) that can cover many specialty
cards. Much smnarter than papy's past experiments to cover several boards.

Personally IMO Papy can be making a lot more $$$ off Nascar 2 if they did
everything just right.

Q.B.M.

Well if there are 500,000 3Dfx cards out there(guessing) and there main
purpose is playing games I don't find it had to believe that 20% of the
owners would buy N2.  It is one of the hottest games going and most 3dfx
owners wouldn't consider buying a 3d game that didn't support 3dfx in
some way.  Very realistic IMO.

I guess if you still live in the past you don't have to learn anything
that you can use in the future.  Just when does Papyrus plan on learning
to support the rest of the hardware industry, never?  They seem to be
the only ones out there who think that Rendition is the future of their
company.  

I own it and it is my favorite game, I bought a Rendition card just for
it but I don't think I should have to do that again.  I am still pissed
that there is no anti-aliasing support in N2(another discussion in
itself).  I think it is a poor business decision for Papyrus to abandon
its hottest product the way it has.

I wasn't flaming you, I thought we were having an intelligent
discussion.  

Dana Bailes

Q.B.M.

R:

I would like to expand on this in one of several regards. (Jim we know you
don't work for Papy anymore).

I picked up X-Car Tuesday. I've been working on my setup ever since and I
still don't have a good drivable car. In Nascar 2 I have over 40 hours messing
with setups, game parameters (blaps, rels and skill settings) to have it where
I want it. Out of the 20 or so players I race with only 3 or 4 of them would
ever mess with car setups so that's 75% that wouldn't have liked the game if I
didn't give them setups. That is a strong # IMO. What I know they don't mind
is having a very very good setup to start with and maybe messing slightly with
a parameter or two (usually gears) but they could just as easily live without
that.

Now trying to setup a car in X-Car which gives you many more parameters is a
headache waiting to happen. I can't help but think to myself... "I have those
Nascars setup just the way I wan't them. I have 15 or so tracks setup up, why
don't I just stay with that instead of blowing another XXX number of hours
trying to setup a car in X-Car?". It's very possible the cars can never handle
properly in X-Car no matter what I do.

The above is what a diehard racer will do. But I can bet the house the
majority of the potential players just want to strap in and race, no garage
whatsoever. But they want the model well above the typical arcade racing joke.

I've mentioned this to Papy and Bethdesa in the past. They need car setups
that are optimal out of the box that can be used in a so-called "special mode"
(both have either an action mode or arcade mode but both fall short overall,
Papy's is better tho). In this hypothetical "special mode" you can't see the
settings that made it possible, so it doesn't ruin the experience for the guy
that wants to setup his car from scratch. But this gives both *** users
and just racers things they want. *** users want to know if the handling
model is good if tweaked properly and the racers just want to click race and
move on. This simply is missing overall on both companies parts.

I've wrote Bethdesa today to give me an outstanding setup for any car for any
track. They have 24 hours to do so or it goes back. I can't tell 100% if there
handling model is good or my setups are off. But I don't want to spend hour
after hour to find out that it's the model and be stuck with something I never
raced. I didn't buy it for setting up cars, I bought it to race in a
multiplayer enviroment. I'm sure a lot of would be buyers get the same feeling
when picking up a Papy product as well, (even though N2 is much easier to hone
in than X-Car). Many people just want to race nascars not build a car as well,
those are typical non r.a.s. subscribers or the majority. So this can be the
first letter in history to a company asking for a car setup to determine the
fate of me owning a product. But what the hay? I can't tell if this game is
good or not.

(To Don Wilshe "I doubt it" :) Your working with a group on another sim with
an ungodly number of parameters, please give us the perfect car that cannot be
viewed for it's setup statistics so we can see if the cars are drivable if
setup properly. You'll be running down the same street that X-Car is entering.
I had a headache just reading your setup list!!)

By the end of this week I'll be contacting Papy on another subject regarding
market penetration. IMO they are missing out on a wonderful opportunity that I
will enlighten them with. Nascar 2 can be IMO 10 times the seller that it
already has been.

Q.B.M.

Papyrus aims to ship several stock setups that allow the car to be
driven reasonably quickly or reasonably easily. Each driver really does
need to make their own changes to suit their style of driving.

A quick example: Most people who know nothing about the technical side
of NASCAR try to drive too fast into the turns. The result is the car
scrubs way too much speed and pushes up the track, possibly all the way
to the wall. Since the car is pushing, they just dial in more steering
until the finally get through the corner, but their exit speed is
terrible. These people need a different setup to go quickly if they
won't train themselves off of this tendency. So, giving them a setup
that a <Pick your favorite fast N2 driver> uses won't help them one bit.

Arcade mode in the Papyrus sim does have its flaws, but I think it adds
a measure of "sit down and drive reasonably well in the first fif***
minutes you have the game."

---Jim

So your of the opinion that 3DFX is the end all be all of 3d accelerator
cards... Some of you people really make me laugh!

   Well I've been concentrating lately on the Flight Sim NG so I guess
I messed your departure from the big P.  Can I bother you for a quick
recap of your leaving???(ie quit to pursue other interests., fired,
downsized etc..)  And you'd better not worry about making pro Papy
statements, it's when you bring :"real world" number crunching into
our happy playground, thats when we get mad...:)

Dave Henrie

Not Today!  ThankYOU Pepsi Club.
remove nospam. from email address

Joe

Of course, now when I go visit the Papyrus folks and see GPL in
progress, I feel twinges of "oh no, I should have stayed..."

---Jim

Joe

Q.B.M.

My point is the game (all for that matter) should come setup in these areas
ready to go and it doesn't, it takes mucho time and understanding. Personally
I do feel (trying not to sound modest) I have the best version of General
Public Nascar 2 in existence. And that version could have one more final brush
up to make it even a tad better, but I'm happy now and the final brush
up will cost me probably 10-15 hours.

R:

There's still a large gaping hole between Arcade Daytona and Nascar 2. Both
are the extremes even though Daytona is ridiculous extreme with no handling
model to speak of and what is that track of anyway... Nascar 2 with some time
can be made into one helluva peoples Nascar.

One would think a large group would just like to get a Nascar game and just
jump in and take off and have an awesome experience, then go back and do some
personalized tweeking. The setups I do have seem to be very universal for all
drivers. And the AI changes make the game much more balanced and realisitic to
what you see the pro's goiing through.

Which again brings you to the Nascar crossroad. Do you want a game that is
difficult so only the Gordon's and Martin's of the computer world can be
great? While the average Joe just isn't good enough to compete? This sounds
limiting to me.

ORRRRR.....

A game where you can be transformed into the Gordon's or the Martin's of the
computer world without having to be a special driver. This way the majority
can enjoy it? Thus making the race the main focus. The best drivers still are
gonna do the best, but average and poor drivers can at least enjoy the ***y
game and sneak a win in every once in a while.

You know which one I would choose, but both have their merits.

Q.B.M.

Beers and cheers
Goy

Cheers!
John (a voice in the wilderness - 3dFX before spotters!)

Besides, would it be any fun if a good driver got beat by someone who
couldn't find their way around the track with a map?

In the interest of intelligent discussion: Where does arcade N2 fall
short on the "people's NASCAR" metric? I'm curious, and I suspect
Papyrus is as well.

---Jim

So, Rendition N2 took about one week for a one programmer, as the hard
work was already done by another project.

---Jim