rec.autos.simulators

shouldn't we give Papy a break?

Chad Roger

shouldn't we give Papy a break?

by Chad Roger » Fri, 25 Jun 1999 04:00:00

The reason I say this is that there is alot of Papy bashing going on right
now about the lack of the GPL engine driving N3.  Believe me I am as upset
as the next guy about this, but it seems simple to me as to why.  There
simply isn't the horsepower to run it right now with the average CPU.  They
would be catering to the upper 1% of guys who had the fastest of the
fastest.  Somewhere in there they have to be accountable to make a profit
and my guess is that N3 even on the N2 engine will be a wild success.  I for
one would would buy whatever damm CPU is necc. to run it on the GPL engine
and I bet most here would, but we are a small minority sadly.  They will
release N4 probably a year later when the CPU's of the world can handle 43
cars and a stable connection (a guy can dream right?)

 Now it would be nice to hear a response from someone within Papy to let us
know that, but lets give these guys a break. I for one know that I have had
a hell of alot of fun the last 5 years playing Papy racing sims.  Now do us
proud and get working on that damm N4 as it will be hard to step backwords.

Chad Rogers
formerly chadliz on TEN (and boy am I glad I qiut when I did)

Thomas Fo

shouldn't we give Papy a break?

by Thomas Fo » Fri, 25 Jun 1999 04:00:00

On Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:41:30 -0700, "Chad Rogers"


> The reason I say this is that there is alot of Papy bashing going on right
> now about the lack of the GPL engine driving N3.  Believe me I am as upset
> as the next guy about this, but it seems simple to me as to why.  There
> simply isn't the horsepower to run it right now with the average CPU.  They
> would be catering to the upper 1% of guys who had the fastest of the
> fastest.

It's true that this was one of their primary concerns when first
designing Nascar 3. What I'm most surprised at is that they decided to
use the aging Nascar 2 engine, even though they say that are
completely gutting it and making it sparkle like new. The Nascar 2
engine is terrible by todays standards. Cars don't even leave the
track for the sky in an accident. What would have been better (IMHO)
is if they had designed a whole new engine, just for Nascar 3, which
was somewhere in the middle of the N2 and GPL engine.

The problem is that, like a dog tasting *** for the first time, now
that sim fans have experienced the thrills of GPL, how can they be
expected to be pleased when a new sim comes out using a physics engine
which has been around for years?

I'm sure it will, but perhaps the sheer hype (both good 'and' bad
publicity) will sell a great number of copies?

I mean this in the nicest possible way, but why should Papyrus be
given a break? They are a company after all, who are out (as you say)
to make a profit. If this were just one man we were speaking of, who
was building these games out of the kindness of his heart, then I
would fully support giving him all the breathing room he required. But
this is not one man. This is an entire company, who have many years of
experience.

Thomas Ford

"Please remove NOSPAMMING from e-mail address to reply"

Chris Roger

shouldn't we give Papy a break?

by Chris Roger » Fri, 25 Jun 1999 04:00:00

I don't think ANYONE should be giving Papyrus a break!

  Every Papyrus sim that has ever come out has pushed the cpu limit.  That
is why their sims are still being played YEARS after they were released.  I
mean, how many of you upgraded from 4mb to 8mb ram on your piddly-ass 486's
like I did when Nascar Racing came out...just so you could see the cars with
decals on the sides?  Games DRIVE the computer industry and are the major
reason people upgrade their computers.  I mean how many people you know had
to get a Pentium III to run MS Word properly?  Papy simply is too greedy to
wait until a GPL based N3 can be developed or they just plain can't get
Nascar physics to work in a GPL engine.

  I am pissed at Papy because they are forking out a substandard product
that takes a step back in technology not forward.  Has anyone taken a look
at those N2 mirrors lately?  I mean come on...a blue line for sky and a gray
line for track with shitty little cars in it?  The I original Indianapolis
simulation did just as well with its mirrors and it was released in 1989
people!  I mean let's get serious...I have my original copy still in the box
and it came on two 5 1/2" floppies.  I bet 3/4's of the N3 target audience
has never seen a 5 1/2" floppy!

  It pisses me off to think that we all have supported them and have been
loyal to them for so damn long and they have basically said "*** you!" to
all the loyal following that they have developed.

  At any rate...I refuse to pay for a new product that I already own (N2
disguised as N3).   I was a big N2 fan and simply have NEVER played it again
since I bought GPL because it DOESN'T EVEN COMPARE!!!

Until my next tantrum,
  Chris

Stuart Becktel

shouldn't we give Papy a break?

by Stuart Becktel » Fri, 25 Jun 1999 04:00:00


> On Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:41:30 -0700, "Chad Rogers"

> > The reason I say this is that there is alot of Papy bashing going on
right
> > now about the lack of the GPL engine driving N3.  Believe me I am as
upset
> > as the next guy about this, but it seems simple to me as to why.  There
> > simply isn't the horsepower to run it right now with the average CPU.
They
> > would be catering to the upper 1% of guys who had the fastest of the
> > fastest.

> It's true that this was one of their primary concerns when first
> designing Nascar 3. What I'm most surprised at is that they decided to
> use the aging Nascar 2 engine, even though they say that are
> completely gutting it and making it sparkle like new. The Nascar 2
> engine is terrible by todays standards.

First thing, it is not terrible. It is the most accurate model NASCAR on the
market at the moment. Second, have you seen any of the pictures from the
wrecks? They are much better then NR1999E, it is going to be using a 3D
engine, not 2D like NASCAR 2, and it will be a pretty good game.

Yea, it is going to be NASCAR 3, using a heavly modifed NR1999E engine.
Anywyays, you know how fast of a computer you need for GPL, about the
fastest PII now, or at least a 400.  At about this time, it would have been
stupid to design a new engine, it is too hard to do so, and would have cost
too much. NASCAR 3 will be what you are talking about, a 3D engine, but not
3D landscape.

The physics model has not been around for years, it hasn't even been
released, when someone making a game says that they will modify an engine so
that cars will act more realisitic. That means, at least in my world, that
it is going to use a new physics model which has not been around for years,
at least not on the consumer market.

It is a NASCAR sim, it will sell a couple of million copies in the next 5
years, like NASCAR Racing did.

- Show quoted text -

Papy should be given a break, because with everything that we ask from them,
we are never happy. They realise the most realistic physics model EVER to
us, and we cry that NASCAR doesn't use it. They tell us they are going to
give us a NASCAR game with a new physics model, and we cry because we are
too lazy to read the latest press releases or don't want to ask. They should
also be given a break because they, like you, are human, they make mistakes.
If we never gave a break to anyone who ever releasied a game, and never
bought there products again because of this, we would not have many game
companies, like id software (Doom II,) EA Sports (NASCAR Revolution) and
Dynamix (Lords of Magic.)

Stuart Becktell
www.Gamewire.org

Tracey A Mille

shouldn't we give Papy a break?

by Tracey A Mille » Fri, 25 Jun 1999 04:00:00

Chad Rogers wrote

    That is a sorry excuse. GPL couldn't be ran on the "average CPU" when it
came out last year. I couldn't turn all the graphics on when N2 came out and
I had a "high end CPU" for that time. The same goes for N1 and  Indy Car
1&2. Papy has always pushed the envelope and made a lot of money doing it.
But because GPL bombed (at least in the U.S.) they decided to change what
has been working for them and every other highly successful game company. Do
you think it hurt ID software sales of Quake when few people had enough
horsepower to run it at maximum resolution? I doubt it. When you race online
(TEN) you only see 6 cars ahead or behind anyway so the whole 43 cars in
Nascar argument is another poor excuse for not using the GPL engine.
.
    The big problem is that too many of us suckers ran out and bought N1999
and Sierra decided the money was just too easy than to actually develop a
modern Nascar game.

Tim (fusio

shouldn't we give Papy a break?

by Tim (fusio » Sat, 26 Jun 1999 04:00:00


> What would have been better (IMHO) is if they had designed a
>whole new engine, just for Nascar 3, whichwas somewhere in the
>middle of the N2 and GPL engine.

I don't know how close the Sierra ties bind Papyrus and MGI, but I
think a lightly modified Viper Racing engine would have made an
awesome contender.

The only issues are if it can handle the amount of cars (I hear it
goes berserk when you use the hack run more than 16), but I know for a
fact it stays pegged at over 50fps running with 8 cars on my crummy
K6/2 with a Voodoo2 card. If they could get 25-30 cars running at
30fps using the Viper engine on a PC of my spec, they'd be in
excellent shape.
The second issue is the lack of a software renderer. At this point, I
think it's a moot issue though. Anyone with a box capable of running
it probably has a 3D capable card.

In any case, I'm probably in for N3.
If they can successfully take some of the GPL handling things they've
learned, put them in a modified N2 engine, then use them to model a
tire that doesn't have the traction of a bowling ball on ice, I'll be
extremely happy.
I'd also be happy to buy a P3 450 and TNT2 if they used the GPL
engine, so I suppose my opinion is rather worthless. ;-)

Tim

ymenar

shouldn't we give Papy a break?

by ymenar » Sat, 26 Jun 1999 04:00:00


So give us a slider so we can limit the # of AI to 20, like GPL.

I don't see your point, sorry :)
--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank>
-- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/
-- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/
-- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
-- May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Bruce Kennewel

shouldn't we give Papy a break?

by Bruce Kennewel » Sat, 26 Jun 1999 04:00:00

So this aspect is of major importance to you......that the cars have the
ability to soar skywards in an accident???!!!!


Mark Seer

shouldn't we give Papy a break?

by Mark Seer » Sat, 26 Jun 1999 04:00:00

Rotflol. I've just picked up this week's copy of Autosport. There is a
cartoon on the letters page depicting a scene from the Goodwood festival of
speed. Cut to the paddock...Drivers signing autographs....The tannoy pipes
up. .... "And now direct from Le Mans, the Silver Arrows Display team". Up
in the skies can bee seen three Mercedes flying in close formation.

Regards

--
Mark Seery
GPML league director
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/mark.seery/

> So this aspect is of major importance to you......that the cars have the
> ability to soar skywards in an accident???!!!!



> > On Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:41:30 -0700, "Chad Rogers"
> > Cars don't even leave the track for the sky in an accident.

Scottie Smit

shouldn't we give Papy a break?

by Scottie Smit » Sat, 26 Jun 1999 04:00:00

My thoughts exactly...

Scottie


>That is a sorry excuse. GPL couldn't be ran on the "average CPU" when it
>came out last year. I couldn't turn all the graphics on when N2 came out
and
>I had a "high end CPU" for that time.

Bill Met

shouldn't we give Papy a break?

by Bill Met » Sat, 26 Jun 1999 04:00:00



>  It pisses me off to think that we all have supported them and have been
>loyal to them for so damn long and they have basically said "*** you!" to
>all the loyal following that they have developed.

  Inhale.  Exhale.  Inhale.  Exhale.  Ok, now that you've had a couple
deep breaths, allow me to point out one tiny little thing to you.  NO ONE
knows who made these decisions or why.  They could very well have been
decisions made by Sierra that Papyrus is being forced to deal with.  There
are many people who feel that this is more likely the case than Papyrus
having come to these decisions on there own.  So before you go launching a
personal shitstorm at Papy, at least consider flinging some (if not all)
of it Sierra's way.
--
                    | "Instead of letting the moon be the
Bill Mette          |  gateway to our future, we have let
Enteract, Chicago   |  it become a brief chapter in our

Ian Greenwo

shouldn't we give Papy a break?

by Ian Greenwo » Sat, 26 Jun 1999 04:00:00

On Thu, 24 Jun 1999 21:48:01 -0500, "Tracey A Miller"


>Chad Rogers wrote
>>There simply isn't the horsepower to run it right now with the average CPU.

>    That is a sorry excuse. GPL couldn't be ran on the "average CPU" when it
>came out last year.

And what _is_   the 'average CPU' now ? 400 seems to be entry level
for a new PC in the UK now.  Probably higher than even this in US.
Most software is known to be bought by people with newer PCs.

Such a PC should be capable of running  GPL/N3 to something
approaching their potential (video hardware notwithstanding). By the
date N3 actually ships, I am sure that  most new PCs will have
450MHz/V3 configurations.

My suspicion (and I would love to be proved wrong) is that the GPL
physics model is judged too hard for the mass market.

ymenar

shouldn't we give Papy a break?

by ymenar » Sat, 26 Jun 1999 04:00:00


That's a myth.  It's not the physic model who is too hard.  It's the era of
GPL cars, being 1967 Formula 1 with over-powered engines for the chassis and
crappy tyres.  Physics can't be hard, they can only become more and more
realistic.  Saying that N3 would blow because it would be "GPLesque" is a
myth, since the physic model is of course different, your now passing to a
Stock-car who is very heavy.

Sierra did a stupid decision, but a monetary decision.  Of course it stinks,
but eh it's Sierra, nothing should be surprising anymore.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank>
-- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/
-- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/
-- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
-- May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Don Hanco

shouldn't we give Papy a break?

by Don Hanco » Sat, 26 Jun 1999 04:00:00

On Fri, 25 Jun 1999 21:58:14 -0000, "Bruce Kennewell"


>So this aspect is of major importance to you......that the cars have the
>ability to soar skywards in an accident???!!!!



>> On Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:41:30 -0700, "Chad Rogers"
>> Cars don't even leave the track for the sky in an accident.

        Actually, yes: when a car gets airborne it has a tendancy to
both sustain and dispense different damage. If a car can flip over on
its roof it'll damage more differently than if it just plows straight
into a wall.  You could sustain MUCH different damage if a car lands
on your roof than if it slams into your quarterpanel.
        A car could get launched off the front end of another and
damage the hood as opposed to the grill....  You may be able to get
underneath a flipping car that would be in your way if they were on
the ground instead of in the air...  Yes, flips and airborne
recreations can have an impact on gameplay and should be modelled!

Gunner
GunnerDon on TEN and Heat.net

Don Hanco

shouldn't we give Papy a break?

by Don Hanco » Sat, 26 Jun 1999 04:00:00

On Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:41:30 -0700, "Chad Rogers"


> Now it would be nice to hear a response from someone within Papy to let us
>know that, but lets give these guys a break. I for one know that I have had
>a hell of alot of fun the last 5 years playing Papy racing sims.  Now do us
>proud and get working on that damm N4 as it will be hard to step backwords.

        You know, I've thought the same.  Then I go the flight-sim
newsgroup and I see Andy Hollis fielding all these questions about
A-10 and F-18 (products that are MANY months away from release!!!!)
and he's telling them where they are in developement; asking for input
and answering questions!!!!!  WHY CAN'T PAPY DO THIS???!!!!! EVERY
time Andy or one of the other developers on his teams posts to that
group I think about how much different all these threads about N3
would be if we could hear from the developers DIRECTLY!!
        Can't make GPL work on Nascar? FINE! TELL us!  Can't support
current hardware? FINE! TELL us! Also: tell us about black flags;
animated flagmen; AI fixes....  There's no real need for total
silence...
        And lastly: I find it a TOTAL INSULT when they put out an
8-bit sound file and ask for input, then dissappear! They'll put out a
ridiculous 30-second "video" and dissappear....  I PERSONALLY feel
they'd keep the hype built up better by periodic news releases.
Descent 3 did that: I got email every couple of weeks with DETAILED
descriptions of what they were doing that week (level development,
boss development, artwork, sound).....
        Take notes from Andy Hollis' team and let us KNOW YOU CARE -
WE CARE!!!

Gunner
GunnerDon on TEN and Heat.net


rec.autos.simulators is a usenet newsgroup formed in December, 1993. As this group was always unmoderated there may be some spam or off topic articles included. Some links do point back to racesimcentral.net as we could not validate the original address. Please report any pages that you believe warrant deletion from this archive (include the link in your email). RaceSimCentral.net is in no way responsible and does not endorse any of the content herein.