rec.autos.simulators

FAQ - How do I block TOP POSTERS

Alan Jone

FAQ - How do I block TOP POSTERS

by Alan Jone » Wed, 17 Sep 2003 06:01:31

Your reasoning is you like to use a mouse?  Your 'experience' is showing
Jan.  You haven't learned that your keyboard is 'faster', more efficient,
and more 'intuitive' than a mouse.  Sure you have to learn the key combos
but they're right there, easy to find and learn, as you click on the drop
down menus with your 'mouse'.  Many of the most used functions are single
keystroke letters.  It doesn't take that long to learn them and once you do
you wonder how you ever got along without them.  After using and learning
Agent, navigating with a slow and cumbersome mouse would be a nightmare
while dealing with the hundreds, sometimes thousands, of messages in the
four groups in which I participate.  

On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 20:21:43 GMT, "Jan Verschueren"


>How intuitive is having to look up a keyboard command compared to a big
>button with a green down arrow on it labeled next?

>But I guess you consider something easily available and clearly visibly
>suggesting its function to be condescending...

Race15

FAQ - How do I block TOP POSTERS

by Race15 » Wed, 17 Sep 2003 06:03:53

Sicks years ago I cud not evan spel compooter oparater and now I r won!
Alan Jone

FAQ - How do I block TOP POSTERS

by Alan Jone » Wed, 17 Sep 2003 06:05:15

Yes it is.  



Alan J. Claffi

FAQ - How do I block TOP POSTERS

by Alan J. Claffi » Wed, 17 Sep 2003 08:42:20


It's bad enough that you consistently poison rec.autos.sport.nascar, now
your condescending pomposity is a blight on yet another newsgroup.

Sigh.

blah

FAQ - How do I block TOP POSTERS

by blah » Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:03:34

No, it's totally wrong.

>Yes it is.  



>>isn't top posting a good thing?

Jan Verschuere

FAQ - How do I block TOP POSTERS

by Jan Verschuere » Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:08:37

No my reasoning is that if I would like the program to select the next
message I read instead of scanning the headers and double clicking the one I
*want* to read, I don't want to have to look up or know a keyboard command.

BTW: Free Agent only has a button for "next", whereas I frequently start
with a reply in a thread from someone I know and go up to find how the
thread progressed as it has.

Bullshit... I know keyboard shortcuts are a faster and more efficient way of
doing things you know how to do via buttons or menu commands. "Intuitive"
means the software makes is easy/self-evident enough to accomplish a task
even if you don't know exactly how to do it.

Except for most applications supporting ctrl-c/ctrl-x/ctrl-v for
copy/cut/paste, application specific keyboard shortcuts do not fall under
"intuitive features".

I bet you wish programs were still run from the command line too. Great
days, weren't they? -I remember when I studied to be an engineer all the CAE
(Computer Aided Engineering) tools were on a big Unix minicomputer by Sun
with HP workstations. I don't remember the system's name... something to do
with elephants (I kid ye not). The programs themselves were GUI but one
needed to start them from the command line, specifying which libraries and
schematic you wanted to use. So what did I, having some knowledge of UNIX
shell, do? -I wrote macros and handed them around to my classmates so we
wouldn't have to type in the system directory where the component libraries
were stored, nor our user directories where our designs were stored. Next
year the teacher handed them to the next class (without crediting me, which
irks me to this day).

Now I open the project management application for my EDA (Electronic Design
Application) package (which runs a single computer system using any recent
Windows OS), click on the "open" button (which defaults to a directory of my
choosing) and select the file I want to edit. If I select a schematic, it
opens the schematic editor with the schematic for editing, if I select a PCB
layout it opens the PCB editor and so on...

What actually happens here? -Well, clicking the button or double clicking
the file, launches a macro one of the programmers of this application wrote,
saving me from having to actually know how to do this by typing in a
command. The more things change, the more they stay the same. I'm just able
to do more stuff without knowing the ins and outs. I used to be
uncomfortable with this, I'm not anymore. Perhaps it's time for the
so-called knowledgable users to throw away the comfort blanket of low level
control and admit point and click really is easier, instead of "easy once
you know".

When I'm editing my electronic designs I use keyboard shortcuts to
accomplish routine tasks without having to take the mouse out of the work
area. I get paid to produce designs, not to fart about with a mouse.
However, when I have to do something out of the ordinary, like inserting
nodes for automatic testing machines (most of my clients don't have that
kind of equipment, to date none have asked me for this kind of information),
I would look under the most likely menu and, having paid nearly $9000 for
the software and knowing it incorporates this feature, I would be very
annoyed not to find the command there.

I guess it boils down to what you expect your software to do. I follow some
7 newsgroups, most on private servers where the message traffic is low. In
fact RAS is has by far the largest message traffic of all and even that's
not unmanagable at an average of 50 headers per day. I can configure all of
them in OE and browse the messages in a way that comes natural to me. In
fact, I've yet to try a newsreader that does it better and I've tried all of
'm (at Tucows) in order to find one that combines the ease of use I find in
OE with the effortless ability to cull binary newsgroups that is present in
Agent. I haven't been successfull and that is why I use each program for
what it's good at. Whether this conformes to any standard for computer
proficiency as you see it is beyond any of my concerns.

Jan.
=---

Jan Verschuere

FAQ - How do I block TOP POSTERS

by Jan Verschuere » Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:26:25


> > <snip>
> You can use an icon in Agent if you are retarded enough to need one,

Excuse me? -Using a user friendly feature makes me a retard? -I too am in
favour of a minimum of computer savvy on the part of the user, but this does
not mean using a program has to be difficult or obscure to use.

Eh... how do you browse messages then? -Command line DOS or Linux? -Do you
blindy download and read everything that is posted in the newsgroups you
follow? -Life is too short for that!!

Jan.
=---

Tim Mise

FAQ - How do I block TOP POSTERS

by Tim Mise » Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:53:48


Come on people!  Let's articulate!

Jan Verschuere

FAQ - How do I block TOP POSTERS

by Jan Verschuere » Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:16:08

Ok, I'll play along. I like the ability to configure multiple servers. I
like the way the messages are brought up as independant windows that can be
used even if the news client is minimized. Basically, I like the interface,
which I find easier to use and more intuitive than anything else I've tried.
That's not empty rethoric, that's my experience.

Looks do factor into it. The way a program looks has to match the way it
acts. That's one of the problems I have with the other programs I tried.

OE acts more like other windows and Microsoft program I use than any other
news client I've tried (duh!!).

"I'm sorry but, if you use OE, it doesn't reflect well on you as being net-
savvy or well informed in computing."

Which is bullshit and it appears you subscribe to this line of thought. OE
is not a security risk because it allows people to open infected messages.
If one is stupid enough to open a message from a stranger, flagged as having
an attachment, then one deserves what happens next, regardless of which
program one uses. I don't even open a message, flagged as having an
attachment, sent by someone that's on my address list if I'm not expecting
this person to send me an attachment. I always allow people to choose
whether I send them an attachment or not. This has become standard practise
on the internet and there's no reason to act superior because another, less
popular program has not been targeted by hackers yet.

Any program can be exploited, it's just matter of whether someone can be
arsed to find out how to do it. If your program of choice is not the target
of a hacking attempt this just means you're the weirdo minority, not that
everyone else is wrong.

That's because "admins" prefer to keep them dumb and dependant. I've been
striving to "blow up the myth" about using computers since I came into
contact with them almost 26 years ago.

It is not difficult to use computers safely and effectively... it's just the
"magicians circle" likes to perpetuate the myth and expects software to do
the same.

Yet you choose to perpatuate it, regardless of whether it's warranted or
not.

Obviously, the largest user base will attract those who want to subvert the
workings of the internet and I cringe when well meaning, less computer
knowledgable friends and relations send me virus warnings (be they hoax or
otherwise) which I long since know about, but this doesn't deter me from
using and recommending the software I like using. I configure ever machine I
set up not to use the message preview pane in OE and I tell people not to
open unexpected messages carrying attachments. I also set up ZoneAlarm and
FreeAV anti-virus software (set to auto update) for them. So far there have
been no infestations on the machines I "support".

Any claims use of any news client indicates a certain level of computer
knowledgability on the part of he user is simply false. I don't care what
most of the "l33t" community thinks, the premise is, IMO, unsupported
(unsupportable, in fact) and that is that.

Jan.
=---

Carl Fris

FAQ - How do I block TOP POSTERS

by Carl Fris » Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:59:14

As I was referring to the delivery vehicle and wasn't in the least bit angry
anywhere in my message I believe the part about the VW was more of an
analogy than a tirade.  Are you saying that since I find old VeeDubs more
interesting than yuppie cars because I feel that they retain a certain
uniqueness about them that I ceased drawing an analogy and that paragraph
became a tirade?  I don't think so.  I think if you re-read my message in a
state of good humor and not defensively you'll see I was more often than not
tongue-in-cheek.  I use OE for reading NG's because like my TV when I turn
it on it works, first time everytime.  When I bought this computer and went
to check my newsgroups it took less than two minutes to set it up and I was
back online reading my mail and NG's long before I could have installed
another reader.

I like MS products also though I don't use FrontPage.  I do use Visual
Studio.  I wouldn't recommend VS for home casual use. I would recommend
FrontPage or Dreamweaver maybe.  The first editor I used for HTML was
notepad.  If you want to learn HTML use notepad or some other straight ASCII
editor.  I for one would never judge someone's ability or 'net savvy' by the
tool they choose to communicate with.  Oh and when was the last time I used
notepad to do a quick edit on an .asp page?  Yesterday.  To do a quick edit
on an XML page - today.  I needed to up the request buffer in IIS 6 and
quickest way was to just open the XML config file in notepad and edit it.  I
had VS open at the time also but when you have three live sites open with 50
+ files I tend not to want to clutter VS up any more with something as
important as the web servers configuration file.

BONUS QUESTION:  What was the attribute I changed in IIS 6 to increase the
request buffer?

10 Points Extra if you got the answer deciphering your neighbors smoke
signals:)

--
... Carl Frisk


> I like Microsoft products, Office, FrontPage, etc. and OE is a pretty
> good email program but it's 'terrible' with usenet messages.  If you
> don't mind a reader that can't effectively filter, or even delete, and
> persistently drops messages; go right ahead but it doesn't say much
> for you as being a knowledgeable computer user.  Especially for
> someone as you who is supposed to be knowledgeable in the first
> place.  But then, a tirade about a pizza delivery, BMW, and '65 VW
> bug with deadhead stickers and psychedelic paint doesn't speak well
> for a person either.

> I'm not trying to change your mind or force my will on you.  I'm simply
> informing you of the problems with OE and, 'God forbid', telling you
> how you're being perceived by many on usenet.  If you don't care, fine,
> move on with yourself but the fact is people automatically assume you
> don't know any better and are ignorantly using what came with
> Windows.  Or even worse, you know of the problems but continue to
> use it because you like the way it looks.  You're an *** and capable
> of making your own decisions, and you shouldn't have a problem with
> others pointing out the consequences and realities.



> >Not very net savvy? That makes me laugh.  That's like saying if you don't
> >use Pine you're not cool.  I suppose you're still using packet drivers?
Are
> >you composing your messages with VI?  I mean really, if you didn't write
> >your NG reader yourself, why are you breathing my air?  What RFC specs
the
> >kind of News Reader and OS you use anyway?

> >Who cares what you use?  SmokeRelay 1.0 sounds like fun.  Might have to
try
> >it some time:)

> >I've been around computers and the net for a long time and could really
care
> >less what you or anyone else uses or how savvy they are.  I'm more
> >interested in what they have to say.  Kind of like if I order a pizza, I
> >don't care what they drive up in as long as the pizza's good.  The same
> >pizza doesn't taste any better delivered in BMW vs. a 65' VW bug.  Though
I
> >do find a '65 bug with deadhead stickers and psychedelic paint more
> >interesting than the thousands of the run of the mill BMW's I see all the
> >time.  So are those who use AOL or WebTV bad people?  Are they of less
> >character and intelligence than the rest of us?

> >And on the topic of top vs. bottom posting I don't care if the pizza
driver
> >pulled right in or backed up the driveway either:)  I'm interested in the
> >pizza not the delivery, but then again I have a life:)

> >--
> >... Carl Frisk



> >> I'm sorry but, if you use OE, it doesn't reflect well on you as being
net-
> >> savvy or well informed in computing.  It's akin to using AOL or WebTV.
> >> My mother uses AOL because that's about all she can handle or manage
> >> technically.  Pointing this out to others may seem a bit rude but it's
the
> >> hard truth.

Kasper Kowalsk

FAQ - How do I block TOP POSTERS

by Kasper Kowalsk » Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:57:32


> On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:50:28 GMT, "Jan Verschueren"

> >Whatever there may be the technical shortcomings of OE, there is no other
> >news program for PC and Windows OS in particular that comes close to
> >matching its ease of browsing/reading messages and the intuitiveness of
its
> >interface for me.  I sometimes use Free Agent to download stuff off
binary
> >newsgroups, but I can't stand it as a "news reader" in the literal sense.

> What is more intuitive that Agents simple keystrokes - N for next
> unread, I to ignore thread and Backspace to go back to a previous
> message?

keystrokes??? *** that. I don't use a GUI so that I'm still reliant on
the keyboard for basic functionality.

KK

Kasper Kowalsk

FAQ - How do I block TOP POSTERS

by Kasper Kowalsk » Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:01:36


> On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 20:21:43 GMT, "Jan Verschueren"

> >How intuitive is having to look up a keyboard command compared to a big
> >button with a green down arrow on it labeled next?

> >But I guess you consider something easily available and clearly visibly
> >suggesting its function to be condescending...

> You can use an icon in Agent if you are retarded enough to need one, I
> couldn't imagine having to use a GUI to navigate hundreds of messages,
> life is too short.

If you find a GUI taxing, I know someone with a TI-99/4A that needs a
home...  amazing how some people want computers to regress.

KK

spamtra

FAQ - How do I block TOP POSTERS

by spamtra » Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:02:33

On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:27:32 +0930, "Kasper Kowalski"


>keystrokes??? *** that. I don't use a GUI so that I'm still reliant on
>the keyboard for basic functionality.

I read/filter through over a 1000 messages a day, it would take me at
least twice as long to do that using a GUI over the great (optional)
keyboard interface of Agent.
--

Help make Usenet a better place:
Check groups.google.com before asking a question.
Don't top post. Trim your messages to include only relevent text.
John van Gur

FAQ - How do I block TOP POSTERS

by John van Gur » Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:03:08

Yeah!




> > No, it's totally wrong.

> Come on people!  Let's articulate!

spamtra

FAQ - How do I block TOP POSTERS

by spamtra » Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:12:21

On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:31:36 +0930, "Kasper Kowalski"


>If you find a GUI taxing, I know someone with a TI-99/4A that needs a
>home...  amazing how some people want computers to regress.

A GUI is great for a lot of things, but in the case of reading a large
amount of Usenet messages, it is horribly inefficient.
--

Help make Usenet a better place:
Check groups.google.com before asking a question.
Don't top post. Trim your messages to include only relevent text.

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