rec.autos.simulators

Real Racing: Have any of you actually driven a real race car??

Mats Lofkvis

Real Racing: Have any of you actually driven a real race car??

by Mats Lofkvis » Sat, 11 May 2002 21:02:24


> I was wondering if any of you guys or gals have actually driven a race car
> on a circuit, sprint track or hill climb?

> Reading some of the posts here it seems that most people have never been
> near the real thing let alone driven one. In my opinion the game closest to
> getting it right is Grand Prix Legends, though this is still a little way
> off the real thing.

Besides those with impressive race car experience who have already
responded to your post, I guess there are many around here who have
some kind of experience with the real thing even if much more limited.

The best I have to compare against the games is some 20 laps in a
formula ford in a single session a few years ago. Not much, but
at least enough to qualify for getting near the real thing.
(It was on a rainy day, so the wet track made it quite a realistic
simulation of the GPL F3's but with a much better frame rate, not
to mention the truly amazing force feedback :-)

By comparing it to whatever real experience you have (driving
an ordinary street car is better than nothing) and applying
whatever physics knowledge available (you don't need much
physics knowledge to conclude that a real car won't have any
magic force stopping an oversteer from going beyound 20-30
degrees tail out as in many games, for example).

But as games get better, this gets harder. My guess is that
games like GPL and F1 2001 brings us very close to (or even
beyond) the point where people like myself have much
authority on how realistic it is.

Another view on this is that with the best sims available today
the physics engine is good enough to leave us limited almost
exclusively by the inherent problems with a PC sim (small screen,
low resolution, low frame rate, low-precision controllers, high
input to output delay, lack of 'real' force feedback etc etc).

This leads to physics engines being developed to compensate for
the limitations, sacrifying correctness trying to get a better
'feeling' (or just to stop a game from getting too hard).
Now 'more realistic' doesn't mean much anymore because it all
is a big compromise, and if a game is realistic or not depends
on what kind of realism you want.

The hard-core physics ***s will ask for a sim with the best
physics available and no compromises even though it will be as
hard as driving a real car using a not-that-good radio control
setup, and in the other end of the scale you have those who will
ask for something that is just as easy to race with as in real
life ignoring all the limitations even if it means the physics
will be like something from a ten year old arcade rally game.

I'm at the best physics end of that scale (and quite a few here
in this forum probably are), but there are lots of people at
the other end also.

      _
Mats Lofkvist

Mar

Real Racing: Have any of you actually driven a real race car??

by Mar » Sat, 11 May 2002 22:57:21

I bought a champ kart, I consider it my real world physics simulator,
I had too because it is cheaper than a motion simulator for my cpu.
GPL is the closest to me, the way the kart handles and reacts to
steering input is much like GPL, there are many nights where the kart
feels like it has a 30/85 diff and some nights it feels like a 85/30
diff.  The biggest difference to me is the cues we use to drive the
car, in the virtual world you don't have any bumps, g forces, once
completely suited up and belted in there is a bit of a clausterphobic
feeling, etc....in the sim world without all these forces you can
really concentrate on driving the car.  Sometimes in the kart I have
run a different line because hitting that rut in the low groove
started to really hurt my butt, that would never happen in the sim
world.  One track I ran at was real small with some banking, you were
always turning and my left leg would bounce around hitting things,
after the race I noticed I had bruised my leg up pretty bad, there are
just alot more distractions in the real world than the sim world.
Eldre

Real Racing: Have any of you actually driven a real race car??

by Eldre » Sun, 12 May 2002 01:13:24


writes:



>> I drive one everyday.  It's called a Corvette Z06.

>> Gary
>   hehe opening yourself to PLENTY of possible abuse there Gary.  Of course
>EVERYONE knows that the Vette is two cylinders shy of being a real race
>car...that and about 150 hp and 150ft/lbs of torque....NOW WHAT CAR COULD I
>BE THINKING OF??????
>dave(need a hint?)henrie

Um...a Viper?<g>

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.racesimcentral.net/~epickett
A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure
*** cancer.  If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a
donation.  Thank you.

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Rolf Weseman

Real Racing: Have any of you actually driven a real race car??

by Rolf Weseman » Sun, 12 May 2002 05:21:30

yesssss, thats it,

I also am sure, that there is no other company that makes sims, that has
more real experience!

To the driving experience:
A good friend of mine is a former (and very good) F2 and F3 racingdriver
(german master, european master and constructor of own MACO-racingcars). He
loves the setupresults of GPL, but realistically he is saying, that the real
feeling can not be transfered in a racing sim (the feeling of the ass is
missing ;-)) ). But GPL is his favorite and the feeling of the cars on the
tracks is very realistic, he says. Good to get track-knowhow.

Rolf



> Kid,

> Yeah, I've driven real race cars (and wrote the strategy guide that
shipped
> with GPL).

> I was the Editor of Car and Driver in the 1960s, and we tested a bunch of
> race cars (some, like the Ferrari LM and Porsche 904, on the street;
others
> at tracks like Bridgehampton, Lime Rock, V.I.R. and Riverside).  The
fastest
> car I ever drove was a Formula Atlantic, but not in a race.  The hairiest
> car I ever drove was Mark Donohue's Camaro, but not in a race.  I drove a
> Porsche 911 in a couple of Trans-Am races, a couple of other Porsches in
> club races, and 125cc karts in the pre-Jurassic era (remember the
> Freedomland layout?).

> Alison Hine, who was one of the GPL beta testers, has built and raced
> small-bore machinery (including an airplane!), and is currently
campaigning
> a Factory Five Cobra she and her brother built.  Doug Arnao, another beta
> tester for GPL, has won a couple of SCCA National Championships.  Dave
> Kaemmer, Papyrus' chief software designer, currently races Barber Dodge,
and
> most of his staff has been thru the Barber school.

> I don't know of any other racing game that has as many people involved
with
> as much real-life track experience.  It shows.

> --Steve Smith



> > I was wondering if any of you guys or gals have actually driven a race
car
> > on a circuit, sprint track or hill climb?

> > Reading some of the posts here it seems that most people have never been
> > near the real thing let alone driven one. In my opinion the game closest
> to
> > getting it right is Grand Prix Legends, though this is still a little
way
> > off the real thing.

> > I am not seeking confrontation but I am genuinely interested to know how
> > people conclude a game feels real?

> > Comments appreciated.

> > 'Our Kid'

Dave Henri

Real Racing: Have any of you actually driven a real race car??

by Dave Henri » Sun, 12 May 2002 09:15:48

"EldredP"

  DingDingDingDing!!!  that would be correct sir.
Remember 10-2=Corvette.
dave henrie

Eldre

Real Racing: Have any of you actually driven a real race car??

by Eldre » Sun, 12 May 2002 10:09:56



>I think more people than you expect have had real experience.  I
>haven't had much, but I've done some advanced training and a lot of
>autocrossing in my Miata.  I also did a track day at Waterford Hills
>in Michigan ( in the Miata) -- what a blast!

Simon!  When did YOU get to RAS?!?  I'm still waiting for my invite to
Waterford Hills...
If you come through here and DON'T contact me, Screamers better look for
another server...<g>
<just kidding...mostly>

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.racesimcentral.net/~epickett
A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure
*** cancer.  If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a
donation.  Thank you.

Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

remove EATSPAM to repl

Real Racing: Have any of you actually driven a real race car??

by remove EATSPAM to repl » Sun, 12 May 2002 14:19:10


You can spend $1000+ to take classes, in stock car racing, rally racing,
sprint car racing, or Indy car racing. $1500 should get you a one-day
course
with at least an hour of track time, if not more. :-)

Got that issue of Car & Driver right here... It's interesting reading.

--KC

Goy Larse

Real Racing: Have any of you actually driven a real race car??

by Goy Larse » Sun, 12 May 2002 18:24:29



> writes:



> >> I drive one everyday.  It's called a Corvette Z06.

> >> Gary
> >   hehe opening yourself to PLENTY of possible abuse there Gary.  Of course
> >EVERYONE knows that the Vette is two cylinders shy of being a real race
> >car...that and about 150 hp and 150ft/lbs of torque....NOW WHAT CAR COULD I
> >BE THINKING OF??????
> >dave(need a hint?)henrie

> Um...a Viper?<g>

Viper..Viper..is that that big heavy thing with a truck engine in it ?

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

"The Pits"    http://www.theuspits.com/

"A man is only as old as the woman he feels"
--Groucho Marx--

Bufor

Real Racing: Have any of you actually driven a real race car??

by Bufor » Sun, 12 May 2002 18:37:40



I raced from 1969 to 1987 starting in a Mini Cooper, then all kinds of
sports cars up through a Porsche at Daytona. Also ran USAC Midgets,
WOO Sprint Cars, and Nascar Short Track Stock Cars. Tested but did not
race a 1980 Arrows F1 car and a 1983 Theodore Indy Car.

Dave Henri

Real Racing: Have any of you actually driven a real race car??

by Dave Henri » Sun, 12 May 2002 22:23:13

  yes it is...Dale Jarret won't drive the Brown truck, but he'd probably
love to drive the beeg uhMerican
v10 truck mill...
dave henrie
Haqsa

Real Racing: Have any of you actually driven a real race car??

by Haqsa » Sun, 12 May 2002 22:54:38

I prefer to think of the Ram truck as the big heavy thing with a Viper
engine in it.


remove EATSPAM to repl

Real Racing: Have any of you actually driven a real race car??

by remove EATSPAM to repl » Mon, 13 May 2002 13:37:18




Oops, pardon me. I mean MOTOR TREND, not C&D. They highlighted
European Rally School, DriveTech Stock Car School, the Bondurant School
(for road races), and the Sprint Car driving school. The sprint car
shool is the
cheapest... UNDER $1000 for one day.

--KC

Z06

Real Racing: Have any of you actually driven a real race car??

by Z06 » Mon, 13 May 2002 14:48:19

What do you mean?  Check it out.

www.lalim.net

--
--

> Dream on.



> > I drive one everyday.  It's called a Corvette Z06.

> > Gary

> > --
> > --


> > > I was wondering if any of you guys or gals have actually driven a race
> car
> > > on a circuit, sprint track or hill climb?

> > > Reading some of the posts here it seems that most people have never been
> > > near the real thing let alone driven one. In my opinion the game closest
> to
> > > getting it right is Grand Prix Legends, though this is still a little
> way
> > > off the real thing.

> > > I am not seeking confrontation but I am genuinely interested to know how
> > > people conclude a game feels real?

> > > Comments appreciated.

> > > 'Our Kid'

Z06

Real Racing: Have any of you actually driven a real race car??

by Z06 » Mon, 13 May 2002 14:50:28

A Z06 can kick a Viper's ***around a race track.
The Viper only beats a Z06 by a few 10ths in the 1/4, but the Z06 kills a Viper
in any other test... braking, handling, etc.

Sorry....

--
--


> writes:



> >> I drive one everyday.  It's called a Corvette Z06.

> >> Gary
> >   hehe opening yourself to PLENTY of possible abuse there Gary.  Of course
> >EVERYONE knows that the Vette is two cylinders shy of being a real race
> >car...that and about 150 hp and 150ft/lbs of torque....NOW WHAT CAR COULD I
> >BE THINKING OF??????
> >dave(need a hint?)henrie

> Um...a Viper?<g>

> Eldred
> --
> Homepage - http://www.racesimcentral.net/~epickett
> A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure
> *** cancer.  If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a
> donation.  Thank you.

> Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Dave Pollatse

Real Racing: Have any of you actually driven a real race car??

by Dave Pollatse » Mon, 13 May 2002 16:29:09

Another way to get fairly cheap track time is with a car club like BMW,
Corvette, Porsche, etc...  In my state, about 250-300 dollars gets you two
days of track time (you are divided into run groups, so it works out to on
the track a third of the time, classroom sessions a third of the time, and
break time/work on your car the other third).   It's a lot cheaper than skip
barber, et al, and while it's cool to drive the little formula cars, and the
instructors have more racing experience, it's also a blast to drive your own
car on a track--also it's easier for us mere mortals to get to the limits of
a sporty street car than some winged monster.  Furthermore, at least at the
local chapter of BMWCCA, there were a lot of non-BMWs there too (last year
my coworker had a modified Camaro, I also saw an Integra, a Taurus SHO, and
an awesome Ferrari challenge car.  My car is pretty much stock except for
harnesses, but some guys there had vehicles in various state of
transformation to race cars... basically they cater to an extremely wide
range of experience/equipment)
And of course, as others have mentioned, karts are probably the cheapest,
plus you actually get to race wheel-to-wheel...
I recommend trying at least one of these if you can afford it--the
experience is hard to convey...






> > Got that issue of Car & Driver right here... It's interesting reading.

> Oops, pardon me. I mean MOTOR TREND, not C&D. They highlighted
> European Rally School, DriveTech Stock Car School, the Bondurant School
> (for road races), and the Sprint Car driving school. The sprint car
> shool is the
> cheapest... UNDER $1000 for one day.

> --KC


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