rec.autos.simulators

First of all, no I have nothing against Bethsoft.   They are new to the
SimRacing market, and they will learn from their errors.

IMHO, they spent too much time making patches AFTER the release, they should
at least done a targeting market report on what is good and what is not.
IMHO always, this is mostly my little opinion.

Same thing can be said to Papyrus.  It's normal you like the company, since
you are a beta testor for them. I don't recall them asking us in public
(best exemple would be r.a.s.) about what we want or what we don't want.
It's a normal job for a beta tester to actually help them on what they want
or not.  So they aren't better than any company on the market, they just do
their job well.

Hmm, they aren't the first SimRacing title to receive it.

I don't like this. Especially the day (maybe even before) the game is out.
It's more "Hey guys buy our product. There is some flaw so buy it, and wait
in 8months for a better version, since the one you will buy isn't perfect".
Same thing goes for C:PR (who is "supposed" to have a version 2), TOCA,
etc...

Like I said, they aren't the only company who does this. Microprose did some
research for Gp2, same thing for Papyrus.  They are doing a business, and
the poinf of this is to go take the customer to buy an actual title. Normal
marketing. Nothing "better" here.

Hehe "legend".  Oook. ;-)

Finally, I know that this is a "between the line" punt to Papyrus.  I know
this, you know that Don. I know since years in the SimRacing community, and
just by your words I know you don't like Papyrus job (for many reason, and
don't tell me one of them is that you aren't testing there).  But I never
said it was "bad", it's just obvious for me (but not to the everybody
Simracer).

I don't flame you not at all, I just wonder if the point of this post or
nothing more than :

"Check this out everybody and Papyrus. I am beta tertOr for Bethsoft, and
they actually listen to the beta tertOrs.".

All in <ironic>, but there is some fact here. Nothing against you, but it's
just obvious.  I wouldn't be surprised if you cross-posted this in T.g.s.n.
<g> ;-)

Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-)

Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
Member of the r.a.s. Ego-maniac club
Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking)
Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking)

--"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

Legend. Right. Hey, all you fellas are legends.

--
Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

"ymenard",

I think you hit the nail on the head !! Since when does a few people on
the inside ( BETA TESTERS ) speak for the WHOLE sim world ? Last time
I asked about this sim only got one responce , not from the guy who
posted this orinally .

I just get tired of some of the few selected so-called sim expert gurus
who get to beta test , and tell us things like this >>> Oh I got to do
this for these people !

If you are going to brag about it , save some time , just look in the
mirror , you will see the person who is really interested in it.

As for info , reviews & new ideas , things like that will keep people
interested. I tend to listen to either Doug Broda or Dave Thurman, they
un-biased reviews of many racing sims in the last months

Read some of them at the below URL , sim review page ::

http://sim***world.simplenet.com

Hey, I think we need to give Bethesda a break here.
First thing, they did do a drag racing sim, something no one else wanted to
touch.
Second, they did a damn good job of it out the box.
Third,  They take the time to listen to their customers and redo certain
things they may not have gotten right.
Fourth,  A player's edition would be fantastic, because in beginning
development, you never know how things are going to go over with the public.
Now they know what we want and are able to give it to us.
Finally, This is an example of a development company doing all they can to
make their product the best it can be.  Imagine if they had released the
game without any support, didn't do any patches,
and didn't do anything to improve the gameplay of the game.  A couple of
beta testers can't give the
feedback to Bethsoft that a bunch of speed crazed nitro breathing lunatics
that make up the Burnout community can.  Hey, some of us really appreciate
what Bethsoft has done for their game.  Id software did this with Quake and
Quake II and look at what those games have become.  Without support from the
developer, the game can never be the best it will be

Enjoy the view of my Taillights,

Russ

THEN PAPY HAD TO COME OUT WITH A PATCH FOR THE PATCH :)

Robert "GT86" Platts
BlackHole MotorSports
http://www.ivga.com/bhmotorsports
Pro Series Racing League
http://home.earthlink.net/~garywin

        Russell, thank you for putting Don's message in the proper perspective.
I don't pretend to speak for Don or anyone else but when you see a company
taking the direction that Bethesda has decided to, than I will more than
openly
give my full support!
        What Don can't go into detail about, because of NDA's is a much
bigger game plan that is starting to take place. I think he has a reason to
be e***d and all of us will just have to wait and see what unfolds. The
fact
that the company has chosen to listen to us, the end user is different from
most of the other software houses. How do I know because I have tested for
a few others. Do I have any supposed bias? No because I have enjoyed
everyone of my associations and continue to do work for several of them.
        Am I a legend!          Don't think so!
            Does, Julian think he is a legend?         Doubt it very much!
        Is he good?       Yes, better than most.
        Is what Julian is now doing going to benefit us the end user?
        Yes, because he is taking his real life engine and chassis
        building experience and putting it into the guts of a computer
        sim.
Perhaps the fact he can take a V6 Buick Grand National(his former
street car) and get it to run 7.85 at 180+ in the quarter mile impresses
the hell out of me!

        Pete

        Greg, whats the definition of a Legend? There are many things
that a person may or may not be judged upon. I suspect its up to an
individual to decide whether somebody is a legend. If Don thinks, Julian
is a Legend thats his perogative. If Don is enthusiastic about somebodys
abilities or products, he is free to make those claims. Whether you or I
choose to hold with those same beliefs is another matter.
        But I would probably be right in assuming(and yes I know what this
word breaks down into) that if you asked anybody that follows this news
group or others like it, or had spent any time on Hawaii or Ten, you
would know who these two people are! Legendary, infamous up to you to
decide!
        But if I asked people who you are! What answers would we recieve!

        Pete

P.S. Haven't achieved legendary status, but thank you for considering me!

        Francois, now lets get your opinions correct!
-------------------
Bethesda is new to the sim market they will learn from their mistakes!

This is true! They have decided to take a different approach, lets ask
the consumer what he wants! Just like very other sim maker out there!
Whoops, i'm sorry I have never been asked before! Guess, you missed that
one!
------------------

Spend too much time making patches!

Hmmm, double edged sword here! We could go the route of some companies
and never do a patch. No names mentioned. But lets do a sequel every year.
Or we could do a patch only because thousands of people scream we will
never
buy your products as long as we live. Or we could do dozens of patches
until we
get it right. Or we could ask everybody what they want to see in the game
and then
try and get somebody with a working knowledge of that sim and then get it
right.
---------------------

Hmmm tough call!

Individual has a problem with a software company, so that means if he likes
something it must be terrible. So lets trash him.

Well I have no axe to grind with Papy, in fact, I think I have a pretty
good one
with them. So does that mean I to am blacklisted because I might agree with
Don? I don't always agree with him and in fact have disagreed more times
then not.
-----------------------

You don't like the fact that people hype the games before its release.

Ok why don't you erase GPL from your hard drive right now and show
them shameless hussies what you think!
-----------------------

No company ever has the right to bring out a new or revised product
because if they had done the perfect game the first go round there would
never be the need.

Yikes, if your right the software world will come to a standstill. No new
games,
no upgrades taking into account better coding, faster graphics faster
hardware.
Dam your tough! I just hope you show the same zeal in refusing to buy
Nascar3.
How dare them take advantage of us like this!!!
You are truly visionary in your outlook! Stick to your guns and refuse GP3
and
Cart Racing. Snub your nose at them. Show them what the real world is all
about.
--------------------

They aren't the only comapny doing this!

Your right they all openly solict our points of view and ask us to tell us
what we want
to see in their next game!
I will be on the phone in the morning giving them shit! I missed their
postings and I
will ask why they don't ever ask these questions at other companies when
I'm beta
testing for them.
--------------------------

Don is making a veiled attempt to have us all trash Papy.Its all hidden in
the
text through sub-liminal messages. Julian Data is a legend!

Your right, dam! I missed this one entirely! What would I ever do without
your
translations!
---------------------------

        By the way I  am not flaming you! I'm just having trouble flowing this
thread as English is my first language!

Je ne ce pas! (ymenard)

        Pete

Hey no problem. I am no legend and don't claim to be. I just claim
to like Formula One racing games ( I do quite a bit of nascar2 over
the modem with a friend though). As I recall Mr data was giving me
***about 3dfx graphics in racing games. I thought he was full
of ***back then, and still do. I figured F1RS would prove everyone
wrong, and it has.

--
Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

        Dave, perhaps you didn't see the post, but the top ten
requests from all users will be implemented or at least will try
to be.
        As far as beta testing goes, yes it isn't fair that some get to
do it and others don't. Bragging, isn't the way to do it. But sometimes
when somebody asks why I should be able to answer a question and
not others well maybe all those untold, non-paid hours I have put in
sometimes have allowed me a better insight as to what is happeneing.
        As far as helping anyone, I certainly try! If somebody asks
for my setups out right I will say no. But, if you want help in learning
how to go faster I try. There have been a few people where I have
not got back to with email because some days, I get 75 or more and
they get lost, but not intentionally
        If you want to beta test all you have to do is ask! I have asked
many times and got excepted. I have also been asked to do it. I spend
far too many hours playing and testing but thats my choice. If I manage
to contribute in some small way I'm happy!

        Pete

        I don't recall the message, but if I get the drift of your message
correctly, then,
yes, I would agree with you. If enough time and effort is put into
something then it can be
done properly. But in this day and age it doesn't seem to be the norm.
        When, I yell at my head office for installing some crappy application on
my
system and they tell me the fixes I have suggested can't be done! And I
suggest
how they might do it. They offer me a job and tell me to come fix it. But I
haven't
taken them up on it yet! :-)
        The 3dfx does if my understanding is correct, from my friends who are
coders is easier to program for than many other cards. Time is money and
its the law of the land. So thats what becomes the standard and then you
can
either fight or switch. Rightly or wrongly!

        Pete

For what?...They seem to be doing pretty good with a hit on their
hands.

Tantrum aside...

Yes.

Burnout, yes...X-Car, no - They left everyone hangin' in the breeze
on this title.

That's what beta-testing's for.  A few patches aside, why should
someone have to either pay extra, or download a huge update, that
wasn't thought-out for the initial release?  I like developing
products, but hate to think that the Burnout copy I have is more
or less out-dated a month (or so) after it hit the shelves.

Bad form.  They should have an ear to the rails before release.  I
think they knew, however, what many drag-racing-die-hards wanted
many moons back.

They're doing a fine job with Burnout.

X-Car.

X-Car.

<cough> X-Car.

This may be so, but having betas shields the company from a TON
of silly e-mail.

As do I.

If Bethesda handles things right, Burnout may just become another
sim-classic.

I see your lights, didn't you see the blue flag?...You're about to
be lapped!  ;)

Cheers!

Marc

--
Marc J. Nelson
Sim Racing News - http://www.simnews.com

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