rec.autos.simulators

LWFF or TSW steering wheel?

Morgan VW

LWFF or TSW steering wheel?

by Morgan VW » Thu, 03 Feb 2000 04:00:00

I'm thinking of a steering wheel upgrade and wonder whether it'd be better to
invest in a force feedback wheel (LWFF, preferably) or a sturdy and smooth, but
passive Thomas wheel. I've thought mainly of getting the TSW, but Allison Hine
and many others say force feedback really enhances GPL and gives a better sense
of what's happening. I'll use the wheel mainly with GPL, Papyrus' NASCAR sims,
and a little Viper Racing. Also, I'm planning on either Thomas or Redline
(http://www.racesimcentral.net/) pedals so the ones included
with the LWFF won't be a factor.

--
-----------------------------------
Morgan Vincent Wooten

http://www.racesimcentral.net/~morganv/
-----------------------------------

David L. Coo

LWFF or TSW steering wheel?

by David L. Coo » Thu, 03 Feb 2000 04:00:00

Just know this - If you go with analog pedals plugged into your game port
and a FF wheel in either serial or USB, you will only be able to use both at
the same time in only 3 sims that I know of (RC2K, N3 & GPL).  No one else
see's both controllers simultaneously in their game setup options (again,
that I am aware of).

I own a TSW2 and an Act Labs Force RS.  As we speak both units are at Thomas
Enterprises being united.  I'm also having my pedals upgraded with separate
axes and a clutch.  When I get everything back I'll have my FF wheel and
TSW2 pedals (with clutch) all seen as one controller.

Can't wait!

--David Cook


> I'm thinking of a steering wheel upgrade and wonder whether it'd be better
to
> invest in a force feedback wheel (LWFF, preferably) or a sturdy and
smooth, but
> passive Thomas wheel. I've thought mainly of getting the TSW, but Allison
Hine
> and many others say force feedback really enhances GPL and gives a better
sense
> of what's happening. I'll use the wheel mainly with GPL, Papyrus' NASCAR
sims,
> and a little Viper Racing. Also, I'm planning on either Thomas or Redline
> (http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/lakewood/Redline2.htm) pedals so the ones
included
> with the LWFF won't be a factor.

> --
> -----------------------------------
> Morgan Vincent Wooten

> http://members.tripod.com/~morganv/
> -----------------------------------

BRH

LWFF or TSW steering wheel?

by BRH » Thu, 03 Feb 2000 04:00:00

I've had a TSW for about 2 years now, and it's a great wheel.  However, Allison's
site also convinced me to try a LWFF, which I just got a few days ago.

My impressions?  Excellent.  Although I haven't gotten time to tweak the FF
settings yet, I can already see how they add to the whole experience.  The LWFF
wheel has a nice feel to it, and I don't find the pedals as bad as some say
(although the TSW pedals are vastly superior).

Unfortunately, I'm running Win95, so right now USB installation for the LWFF isn't
an option for me.  However, I haven't noticed any framerate hit by using the LWFF
and the serial port.

One caveat if you're running Win95 and want to install this wheel (and this may
only have applied to my funky system) -- installation was a PAIN until I got very
good help from www.wingmanteam.com.   In fact, I just got the FF to work for the
first time last night (although when I just booted now, the LWFF didn't fire up --
I'll have to investigate).

I guess the bottom line of what I'm saying is the LWFF really impressed me when it
works.  I think an ideal combo would be LWFF wheel on USB, and TSW pedals thru the
gameport (if that would even work...).

Hope this helps.


> I'm thinking of a steering wheel upgrade and wonder whether it'd be better to
> invest in a force feedback wheel (LWFF, preferably) or a sturdy and smooth, but
> passive Thomas wheel. I've thought mainly of getting the TSW, but Allison Hine
> and many others say force feedback really enhances GPL and gives a better sense
> of what's happening. I'll use the wheel mainly with GPL, Papyrus' NASCAR sims,
> and a little Viper Racing. Also, I'm planning on either Thomas or Redline
> (http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/lakewood/Redline2.htm) pedals so the ones included
> with the LWFF won't be a factor.

> --
> -----------------------------------
> Morgan Vincent Wooten

> http://members.tripod.com/~morganv/
> -----------------------------------

jbo..

LWFF or TSW steering wheel?

by jbo.. » Fri, 04 Feb 2000 04:00:00

My experience with FF is that it's VERY cool at first, and then -- for
me -- it becomes just a gimmicky distraction.  I appreciate a
solid-feeling controller -- if the wheel in my hands doesn't feel like
it's as sturdy as the wheel in my car, then it feels like a toy for me,
and this is where EVERY FF wheel I've laid hands on comes up short.  The
TSW and TSW2 wheels feel like they could have been pulled from a real
car -- I can lean on them, pound on them in frustration, and even prop
my feet on them without having to worry about how delicate they are.

THIS is my #1 grip against FF wheels at this point, and it may
contribute to my feeling that FF is just a gimmick at this point.

I will say that I haven't yet tried FF with GPL, but based on my
experiences with Viper (EXCELLENT FF), SCGT (mediocre), and NFS
(mediocre driving simulation to begin with), I remain unimpressed with
FF at this point -- enough so that I haven't felt it worth my while to
see what all the fuss is about GPL.  I "feel" enough through the visual
interface, and the leather-and-suede wrapped steering wheel on my TSW2
feels plenty real enough in GPL for me.

I think the bottom line is that anybody who is thinking about buying a
FF wheel should try one out at great length before they buy, lest they
find themselves suffering buyer's remorse early on, then knocking on
TSW's or ECCI's door a year or so down the road when the plastic wears
thin. <G>

Just my $0.02.

-- JB



impressed me when it

- Show quoted text -

> works.  I think an ideal combo would be LWFF wheel on USB, and TSW
pedals thru the
> gameport (if that would even work...).

> Hope this helps.


> > I'm thinking of a steering wheel upgrade and wonder whether it'd be
better to
> > invest in a force feedback wheel (LWFF, preferably) or a sturdy and
smooth, but
> > passive Thomas wheel. I've thought mainly of getting the TSW, but
Allison Hine
> > and many others say force feedback really enhances GPL and gives a
better sense
> > of what's happening. I'll use the wheel mainly with GPL, Papyrus'
NASCAR sims,
> > and a little Viper Racing. Also, I'm planning on either Thomas or
Redline
> > (http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/lakewood/Redline2.htm) pedals so the
ones included
> > with the LWFF won't be a factor.

> > --
> > -----------------------------------
> > Morgan Vincent Wooten

> > http://members.tripod.com/~morganv/
> > -----------------------------------

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Tracey Mille

LWFF or TSW steering wheel?

by Tracey Mille » Fri, 04 Feb 2000 04:00:00

My experience is exactly the opposite. I had a plastic non-FF wheel
then "upgraded" to one of the heavy, steel, high school shop class
wheels and was very disappointed.

Fortunately, the manufacturer lived up to their satisfaction guarantee
so I got a refund and bought a LWFF wheel. The difference is
unbelievable.

At first it was not "very cool", it took some getting used to, and a
lot of tweaking of the settings (thanks Alison) to get it to feel
right. Now I wouldn't trade my LWFF for even a hyperstimulator if the
hyperstim didn't have FF.

If you just download your setups off the internet and run hotlaps, then
a standard wheel might be the best choice. But for feeling what the car
is doing in order to make changes, or when required to run the
unpreferred line in traffic, FF is the way to go IMHO.


> My experience with FF is that it's VERY cool at first, and then -- for
> me -- it becomes just a gimmicky distraction.  I appreciate a
> solid-feeling controller -- if the wheel in my hands doesn't feel like
> it's as sturdy as the wheel in my car, then it feels like a toy for
me,
> and this is where EVERY FF wheel I've laid hands on comes up short.
The
> TSW and TSW2 wheels feel like they could have been pulled from a real
> car -- I can lean on them, pound on them in frustration, and even prop
> my feet on them without having to worry about how delicate they are.

> THIS is my #1 grip against FF wheels at this point, and it may
> contribute to my feeling that FF is just a gimmick at this point.

> I will say that I haven't yet tried FF with GPL, but based on my
> experiences with Viper (EXCELLENT FF), SCGT (mediocre), and NFS
> (mediocre driving simulation to begin with), I remain unimpressed with
> FF at this point -- enough so that I haven't felt it worth my while to
> see what all the fuss is about GPL.  I "feel" enough through the
visual
> interface, and the leather-and-suede wrapped steering wheel on my TSW2
> feels plenty real enough in GPL for me.

> I think the bottom line is that anybody who is thinking about buying a
> FF wheel should try one out at great length before they buy, lest they
> find themselves suffering buyer's remorse early on, then knocking on
> TSW's or ECCI's door a year or so down the road when the plastic wears
> thin. <G>

> Just my $0.02.

> -- JB



> > I've had a TSW for about 2 years now, and it's a great wheel.
> However, Allison's
> > site also convinced me to try a LWFF, which I just got a few days
ago.

> > My impressions?  Excellent.  Although I haven't gotten time to tweak
> the FF
> > settings yet, I can already see how they add to the whole
experience.
> The LWFF
> > wheel has a nice feel to it, and I don't find the pedals as bad as
> some say
> > (although the TSW pedals are vastly superior).

> > Unfortunately, I'm running Win95, so right now USB installation for
> the LWFF isn't
> > an option for me.  However, I haven't noticed any framerate hit by
> using the LWFF
> > and the serial port.

> > One caveat if you're running Win95 and want to install this wheel
(and
> this may
> > only have applied to my funky system) -- installation was a PAIN
until
> I got very
> > good help from www.wingmanteam.com.   In fact, I just got the FF to
> work for the
> > first time last night (although when I just booted now, the LWFF
> didn't fire up --
> > I'll have to investigate).

> > I guess the bottom line of what I'm saying is the LWFF really
> impressed me when it
> > works.  I think an ideal combo would be LWFF wheel on USB, and TSW
> pedals thru the
> > gameport (if that would even work...).

> > Hope this helps.


> > > I'm thinking of a steering wheel upgrade and wonder whether it'd
be
> better to
> > > invest in a force feedback wheel (LWFF, preferably) or a sturdy
and
> smooth, but
> > > passive Thomas wheel. I've thought mainly of getting the TSW, but
> Allison Hine
> > > and many others say force feedback really enhances GPL and gives a
> better sense
> > > of what's happening. I'll use the wheel mainly with GPL, Papyrus'
> NASCAR sims,
> > > and a little Viper Racing. Also, I'm planning on either Thomas or
> Redline
> > > (http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/lakewood/Redline2.htm) pedals so the
> ones included
> > > with the LWFF won't be a factor.

> > > --
> > > -----------------------------------
> > > Morgan Vincent Wooten

> > > http://members.tripod.com/~morganv/
> > > -----------------------------------

> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Trevor Thoma

LWFF or TSW steering wheel?

by Trevor Thoma » Fri, 04 Feb 2000 04:00:00


>If you don't mind my asking, what does Thomas Enterprises charge to "merge"
the
>Force RS wheel with their pedals?  Do they do this with other wheels such
as the
>LWFF?

We probably could do this, the best thing for you to do is email Dave Jr and

Thats one reason why we have such a good rep in the PC racing community,
some others are durability and service :).

Trev

Trevor Thoma

LWFF or TSW steering wheel?

by Trevor Thoma » Fri, 04 Feb 2000 04:00:00


>I own a TSW2 and an Act Labs Force RS.  As we speak both units are at
Thomas
>Enterprises being united.  I'm also having my pedals upgraded with separate
>axes and a clutch.  When I get everything back I'll have my FF wheel and
>TSW2 pedals (with clutch) all seen as one controller.

David, I think you'll notice a big difference when you get your rig back :)
after having seen the inside of the pedals you sent, I'm amazed that anyone
would dare to sell such a poor quality thing! No wonder you dont like them.

How do you get any degree of fine control from something like this?

Trev

??artij

LWFF or TSW steering wheel?

by ??artij » Fri, 04 Feb 2000 04:00:00

I don't know anybody who has tried the FF in GPL, and not *loved* it. I
certainly do. I make easily 75% less crashes because of the feedback.

I tried a few other games with FF, but I liked none of the FF-effects of
them. So give GPL a try, it's a whole different ballgame. It is NOT
distracting in GPL, it only helps.
I agree however on the somewhat fragile feel of the wheels, I wish TSW
would make a solid steel wheel with the Logitech FF device in it, or
something like that.


> My experience with FF is that it's VERY cool at first, and then -- for
> me -- it becomes just a gimmicky distraction.  I appreciate a
> solid-feeling controller -- if the wheel in my hands doesn't feel like
> it's as sturdy as the wheel in my car, then it feels like a toy for me,
> and this is where EVERY FF wheel I've laid hands on comes up short.  The
> TSW and TSW2 wheels feel like they could have been pulled from a real
> car -- I can lean on them, pound on them in frustration, and even prop
> my feet on them without having to worry about how delicate they are.

> THIS is my #1 grip against FF wheels at this point, and it may
> contribute to my feeling that FF is just a gimmick at this point.

> I will say that I haven't yet tried FF with GPL, but based on my
> experiences with Viper (EXCELLENT FF), SCGT (mediocre), and NFS
> (mediocre driving simulation to begin with), I remain unimpressed with
> FF at this point -- enough so that I haven't felt it worth my while to
> see what all the fuss is about GPL.  I "feel" enough through the visual
> interface, and the leather-and-suede wrapped steering wheel on my TSW2
> feels plenty real enough in GPL for me.

> I think the bottom line is that anybody who is thinking about buying a
> FF wheel should try one out at great length before they buy, lest they
> find themselves suffering buyer's remorse early on, then knocking on
> TSW's or ECCI's door a year or so down the road when the plastic wears
> thin. <G>

> Just my $0.02.

> -- JB



> > I've had a TSW for about 2 years now, and it's a great wheel.
> However, Allison's
> > site also convinced me to try a LWFF, which I just got a few days ago.

> > My impressions?  Excellent.  Although I haven't gotten time to tweak
> the FF
> > settings yet, I can already see how they add to the whole experience.
> The LWFF
> > wheel has a nice feel to it, and I don't find the pedals as bad as
> some say
> > (although the TSW pedals are vastly superior).

> > Unfortunately, I'm running Win95, so right now USB installation for
> the LWFF isn't
> > an option for me.  However, I haven't noticed any framerate hit by
> using the LWFF
> > and the serial port.

> > One caveat if you're running Win95 and want to install this wheel (and
> this may
> > only have applied to my funky system) -- installation was a PAIN until
> I got very
> > good help from www.wingmanteam.com.   In fact, I just got the FF to
> work for the
> > first time last night (although when I just booted now, the LWFF
> didn't fire up --
> > I'll have to investigate).

> > I guess the bottom line of what I'm saying is the LWFF really
> impressed me when it
> > works.  I think an ideal combo would be LWFF wheel on USB, and TSW
> pedals thru the
> > gameport (if that would even work...).

> > Hope this helps.


> > > I'm thinking of a steering wheel upgrade and wonder whether it'd be
> better to
> > > invest in a force feedback wheel (LWFF, preferably) or a sturdy and
> smooth, but
> > > passive Thomas wheel. I've thought mainly of getting the TSW, but
> Allison Hine
> > > and many others say force feedback really enhances GPL and gives a
> better sense
> > > of what's happening. I'll use the wheel mainly with GPL, Papyrus'
> NASCAR sims,
> > > and a little Viper Racing. Also, I'm planning on either Thomas or
> Redline
> > > (http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/lakewood/Redline2.htm) pedals so the
> ones included
> > > with the LWFF won't be a factor.

> > > --
> > > -----------------------------------
> > > Morgan Vincent Wooten

> > > http://members.tripod.com/~morganv/
> > > -----------------------------------

> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.

Jan Hoviu

LWFF or TSW steering wheel?

by Jan Hoviu » Fri, 04 Feb 2000 04:00:00


> My experience with FF is that it's VERY cool at first, and then -- for
> me -- it becomes just a gimmicky distraction.  I appreciate a
> solid-feeling controller -- if the wheel in my hands doesn't feel like
> it's as sturdy as the wheel in my car, then it feels like a toy for me,
> and this is where EVERY FF wheel I've laid hands on comes up short.  The
> TSW and TSW2 wheels feel like they could have been pulled from a real
> car -- I can lean on them, pound on them in frustration, and even prop
> my feet on them without having to worry about how delicate they are.

> THIS is my #1 grip against FF wheels at this point, and it may
> contribute to my feeling that FF is just a gimmick at this point.

> I will say that I haven't yet tried FF with GPL, but based on my
> experiences with Viper (EXCELLENT FF), SCGT (mediocre), and NFS
> (mediocre driving simulation to begin with), I remain unimpressed with
> FF at this point -- enough so that I haven't felt it worth my while to
> see what all the fuss is about GPL.  I "feel" enough through the visual
> interface, and the leather-and-suede wrapped steering wheel on my TSW2
> feels plenty real enough in GPL for me.

If you did take the effort to try FF in all sims why not also have a try with
GPL? Can't figure that one out. I can say you're really missing out
something!! I've tried several titles with FF and they indeed are not really
impressive, GPL however is a total different story: It is absolutely the first
title who brought FF to another level. Well I suppose you're already convinced
off the contrary so why bother.........

Jan.

David L. Co

LWFF or TSW steering wheel?

by David L. Co » Fri, 04 Feb 2000 04:00:00


> David, I think you'll notice a big difference when you get your rig back :)
> after having seen the inside of the pedals you sent, I'm amazed that anyone
> would dare to sell such a poor quality thing! No wonder you dont like them.

> How do you get any degree of fine control from something like this?

> Trev

LOL - I didn't.  I never used them - until recently I played around with
NFS-High Stakes, and with that game you just keep it floored anyways so
it didn't matter.  

Since GPL FF I've been using my TSW2 pedals in my game port as controller
#1 with the Act Labs wheel in the USB as controller #2.  I REALLY
appreciate what you guys are doing for me.  An excellent testimony to
your level of customer service :)

--David Cook

Trevor Thoma

LWFF or TSW steering wheel?

by Trevor Thoma » Fri, 04 Feb 2000 04:00:00


>My experience with FF is that it's VERY cool at first, and then -- for
>me -- it becomes just a gimmicky distraction

JB, I agree with your asessment of FF, we have a Logitech unit and when I
first tried it I thought "this is kinda cool" well it didnt take long for
that to wear thin :( I hate the disconnected feeling you get and the
perception of delay between wheel movement and car movement.

Another thing that bugs me is the "wheel goes slack" when the front wheels
start to slide, anyone who has driven a real car in the snow or on gravel
knows that this just doesnt happen. The only way you know when you are
pushing is visible, you sure dont have your wheel suddenly become
disconnected<g>.

I'm sure this'll get the FF devotees fired up but I really dont care, I'm
just expressing my personal feelings on the subject.

Trev

Pierre Robitaill

LWFF or TSW steering wheel?

by Pierre Robitaill » Fri, 04 Feb 2000 04:00:00


> Another thing that bugs me is the "wheel goes slack" when the front wheels
> start to slide, anyone who has driven a real car in the snow or on gravel
> knows that this just doesnt happen. The only way you know when you are
> pushing is visible, you sure dont have your wheel suddenly become
> disconnected<g>.

You should try karting or something where the steering wheel is
more directly connected to the tires than in your daily-commute
(sp?) car. When the tires lose traction, the steering wheel is much
easier to move.
jbo..

LWFF or TSW steering wheel?

by jbo.. » Sat, 05 Feb 2000 04:00:00




> > My experience with FF is that it's VERY cool at first, and then --
for
> > me -- it becomes just a gimmicky distraction.  I appreciate a
> > solid-feeling controller -- if the wheel in my hands doesn't feel
like
> > it's as sturdy as the wheel in my car, then it feels like a toy for
me,
> > and this is where EVERY FF wheel I've laid hands on comes up
short.  The
> > TSW and TSW2 wheels feel like they could have been pulled from a
real
> > car -- I can lean on them, pound on them in frustration, and even
prop
> > my feet on them without having to worry about how delicate they are.

> > THIS is my #1 grip against FF wheels at this point, and it may
> > contribute to my feeling that FF is just a gimmick at this point.

> > I will say that I haven't yet tried FF with GPL, but based on my
> > experiences with Viper (EXCELLENT FF), SCGT (mediocre), and NFS
> > (mediocre driving simulation to begin with), I remain unimpressed
with
> > FF at this point -- enough so that I haven't felt it worth my while
to
> > see what all the fuss is about GPL.  I "feel" enough through the
visual
> > interface, and the leather-and-suede wrapped steering wheel on my
TSW2
> > feels plenty real enough in GPL for me.

> If you did take the effort to try FF in all sims why not also have a
>try with GPL?

Simple:  Because the wheel was hooked up and in use when I had those
sims installed.  It's been mothballed for quite a while now -- it was
on loan to a friend when the GPL 1.2 patch came out, and once I got it
back, I was too busy with DTR to mess around with hooking up the wheel
on the computer that has GPL installed.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

jbo..

LWFF or TSW steering wheel?

by jbo.. » Sat, 05 Feb 2000 04:00:00

I'm not positive, but I think Trev has some experience with real Late
Models, and if so, then he already knows what "directly connected" and
"disconnected" feels like in a high-performance, non-street-going
automobile.  <G>

-- JB




> > Another thing that bugs me is the "wheel goes slack" when the front
wheels
> > start to slide, anyone who has driven a real car in the snow or on
gravel
> > knows that this just doesnt happen. The only way you know when you
are
> > pushing is visible, you sure dont have your wheel suddenly become
> > disconnected<g>.

> You should try karting or something where the steering wheel is
> more directly connected to the tires than in your daily-commute
> (sp?) car. When the tires lose traction, the steering wheel is much
> easier to move.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Pierre Robitaill

LWFF or TSW steering wheel?

by Pierre Robitaill » Sat, 05 Feb 2000 04:00:00


> I'm not positive, but I think Trev has some experience with real Late
> Models, and if so, then he already knows what "directly connected" and
> "disconnected" feels like in a high-performance, non-street-going
> automobile.  <G>

Maybe he does, but shouldn't a tire which has lost traction be
easier to turn? Seems to me that it would move a lot more
freely...

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