rec.autos.simulators

        Andretti was hitting just shy of 200 mph on the stretch just
        past the Carousel. Attempting to duplicate this performance
        I was forced to radically reduce wing settings in the simulator
        but then found that so much braking distance was required plus
        no cornering adhesion that I was lapping 10 seconds slower then
        ACE default setup allows.

        It seems impossible to get Andretti's speed (and he was back
        from the leaders) and Andretti's cornering in the same setup.

        Is this entirely due to my limitations (I'm willing to take most of
        the blame) or is there simply a big difference between the real
        track and the simulated track? Put another way - have any of you
        ICR grognards matched the real track record lap time of 1:48?

        If so I must say I greatly admire you.

        Johansson's readout showed he was taking some of the slow turns
        in 3rd (turn 2 and the left just before the Carousel), and stayed
        in 5th between turn 2 and 5. Very different gearing and shifting
        patterns from those which seem dictated by the default game setups.

        FINALLY - why was I able to qualify 10 mph faster at Michigan
        using default FAST setup versus 100% opponent's? This seems the
        most ludicrous anomaly of all.

        Is it possible to more closely approximate real world numbers by
        tweeking the track and driver text files in the game?

        Does anyone have opinions's on which tracks in ICR most closely
        match their real-world counterparts when raced at 100% ?

        I look forward to your comments.

:       It seems impossible to get Andretti's speed (and he was back
:       from the leaders) and Andretti's cornering in the same setup.

:       Is this entirely due to my limitations (I'm willing to take most of
:       the blame) or is there simply a big difference between the real
:       track and the simulated track? Put another way - have any of you
:       ICR grognards matched the real track record lap time of 1:48?

:       If so I must say I greatly admire you.

In the "real" race they said that the cars were running with a lot of
negative camber in order to make the tires stick with low downforce.
So much so, that they had to shave some *** off to keep the tires
from blistering. Can you do these things in ICR?

Wasn't it Andretti who popped a tire - twice?

[More deletions]
e

--
Dave Perry VA3DP     | Any opinions expressed here are mine and are not

        Is this entirely due to my limitations (I'm willing to take most
of
        the blame) or is there simply a big difference between the real
        track and the simulated track? Put another way - have any of you
        ICR grognards matched the real track record lap time of 1:48?

**************
PART of the problem could be that you are running '93 chassis and engine.
You should compare your time with what everyone did last year.

I picked Laguna Seca to learn my first road course, and after doing
probably 800 miles there now, I took out my tape from last year and
paid special attention to the in-car with telemetry.  I was
rather surprised to find that all the cars were doing 175-180 mph
down through turn 1, while I can barely make it to 150 mph even
when turning laps in under 1:08.  Likewise at the top of the big
hill at turn 7, I've managed to get to the top at 150 mph only once,
but Raul Boesel was hitting the crest at around 165.  On the other
hand, I normally take turn 4 at 135 mph, and I noticed that the
real pros were down in the vincinity of 115.

I saw a 1:46.912 a while back...

This could just be driving style.  Look closely at the onboards (especially
next week at Nazareth on ESPN2!  The race will be shown with "traditional"
coverage on ESPN, and simulcast primarily from onboard cameras on ESPN2) and
you will notice that the different drivers grab different gears through
the same bits of road.

I think the 100% opponents qualify a bit slowly too.  I'm pretty new to this
and I normally can qualify 5mph faster than the opponents at New Hampshire
(and I'm 10mph off the qualifying record!).  However, 105% opponents are
pretty stiff competition.

---

Brian Wong                              Product Marketing Engineering

415-336-0082                            Palo Alto, CA 94303

Same thing happens in Toronto and Portland, I think this is a
shortcoming we have to live with.  Also cornering speeds on ovals are
too fast.  In Michigan real indycar drivers were slowing to 205-215 MPH
when entering turn as my speed is 230-248 (entry) and 215-230 (exit)
depending on fuel load and setup.

: I think the 100% opponents qualify a bit slowly too.  I'm pretty new to this
: and I normally can qualify 5mph faster than the opponents at New Hampshire
: (and I'm 10mph off the qualifying record!).  However, 105% opponents are
: pretty stiff competition.

The major problem is that qualifying speeds are calculated, not driven
by ICR computer drivers.  This gives strange results in some tracks:
  o Michigan:
    100% opponents have slow qualifying speeds (215-217 pole), but they
    can do 222 MPH laps with 40 gallons of fuel
  o Cleveland:
    In qualifying computer gets times in 0:59-1:00 region, but in
    reality they can complete the lap in 1:10-1:15 time (100% opps).

F1GP is more realistic in this respect, the drivers spend the qualifying
period on track doing what they are supposed to do.

BTW: Is it possible to edit track.txt files to change qualifying times
to represent reality in ICR tracks?  For example changing lap record or
some other variable?

Pasi.

: ---

: Brian Wong                            Product Marketing Engineering

: 415-336-0082                          Palo Alto, CA 94303

Another thing to consider is that the tires used for this year's
Road America race were softer than ever, because Goodyear is
preparing for next year's tire war with Firestone.

(Speaking of tire wars, I wonder if NASCAR Racing will have
a Goodyear/Hoosier tire choice.)

--

        The improvements came entirely as a result of increased understanding
        of cornering for me. Instead of throwing the car into desparate
        four-wheel drifts and screeching around the corners with white
        knuckles holding my breath I slowed down a bit more going in, and
        am able to accelerate sooner as I leave. I crash far less often as well.

        The feeling of acceleration is quite exhilarating as the car drifts
        to the outside of the track and takes off like a rocket!

        The sounds in this game are wonderful- the roaring engine seems quite
        realistic when I compare it to tapes of real races. It gives a huge
        sense of power. Am I mistaken, or do I hear the whine of the gearbox
        in there as well?

        I'm getting seriously ***ed to this simulator.....Congratulations
        (belated) to Papyrus for their successful pursuit of excellence.

        Steve

Yes it is, and it is currently in the works.

Ralf
  _   ____   ____    ____    
 |i| /  __| |r__ \  /s___|    Ralf Southard  ICRS Co-Director
 |n| |c|    |a|_| / \e\_      Editor-In-Chief of Online Racing Int'l



_____________________________________________________________________
         6 Armsby Building, University Park, PA 16802

I still love the sima nd hope I can convice Papyrus to refine it
rather than to try to get another buggy product out before the
Christmas shopping season (NASCAR sounds too good to work without
glitches).  

I am currently working on collecting complaints, ideas and suggestions
to then mail a large "Indycar upgrade Petition" to Papyrus. I am willing
to pay for a new verion of Indycar that fixes the proplems I have
found, and adds a few things that were simply left out.

Once this petition gets close to submeission, I will ask here in r.a.s.
for people to "sign" it, i.e. I want people to give me their ok to use
their email address to support my petition. I would rather see an
improved Indycar game than NASCAR crashing on everyone's machine.

enough of this rambling. Please send me email with your thoughts on
what could be improved about Indycar. We already know about the
obviuos stuff, but some detail may have escaped our attention.

Peter

Thanks,
-Bill

--
******************************************************************************
Bill Mette         | "People are personally responsible for keeping themselves

******************************************************************************

Mike.

I think that practice will drop your time a lot more.  I was having a real hard
time trying to get below 1:51, but eventually made it down to 1:45.8.. without
changing my setup at all.

I've found that using the gears to help braking is very effective.  Keep those
revs up in the 12-13K range when slowing will really increase your stopping
power (and let you brake later).

Mainly, practice, practice and more practice is what's required.

I've also found there is a LOT of time to be lost in the carousel (the long
right hand turn about 2/3 around the track).  You should be able to hold at
least 130mph throughout this turn.

|>   The improvements came entirely as a result of increased understanding
|>   of cornering for me. Instead of throwing the car into desparate
|>   four-wheel drifts and screeching around the corners with white
|>   knuckles holding my breath I slowed down a bit more going in, and
|>   am able to accelerate sooner as I leave. I crash far less often as well.

I think that the only place where I get any screeching is in the last two turns
as I power my way around the last turn.

|>   The feeling of acceleration is quite exhilarating as the car drifts
|>   to the outside of the track and takes off like a rocket!
|>
|>   The sounds in this game are wonderful- the roaring engine seems quite
|>   realistic when I compare it to tapes of real races. It gives a huge
|>   sense of power. Am I mistaken, or do I hear the whine of the gearbox
|>   in there as well?

I've seen others complain about the unrealistic sound of IndyCar, but I
agree with you, it sounds a lot like the real cars (at least as heard on
TV)

--

Mike Corrigan

I've noticed this too.  I think it is just a difference between the ICR
model and the real cars.

|>   It seems impossible to get Andretti's speed (and he was back
|>   from the leaders) and Andretti's cornering in the same setup.
|>
|>   Is this entirely due to my limitations (I'm willing to take most of
|>   the blame) or is there simply a big difference between the real
|>   track and the simulated track? Put another way - have any of you
|>   ICR grognards matched the real track record lap time of 1:48?

My best time is 1:45.803.  I got there simply through lots of practice.
My setup is the ACE setup with the wings INCREASED considerably.  With
the standard ACE setup I was getting 185 as a top speed.  With my current
setup, my top speed is 177.  The only changes I made were to increase the
wings (both Front and Back increased the same amount) until I'm down to
177.  I also had to modify the gearing slightly.  

I also think that this track is probably the most important to use
manual shifting.  For example, in the first turn I shift down from sixth
to fourth where the automatic shifter leaves the car in sixth.  This
causes a huge loss in acceleration.  

|>   If so I must say I greatly admire you.

Thank you.

<<snip>>

--

Mike Corrigan

[snip]

Find yourself a book on competitive racing (Bondurant, J. Stewart & Proust
have written some).  You will pick up a few more tricks of the trade.
The one I find helpful, braking through the apex of the corner.  This is
not hard braking, but keeping the brake on just a little.  This has the
effect of transferring the load to the front wheels, thus enhancing
steering.  I was pleasantly surprised that ICR seems to have simulated
this quite well.  Of course you will need linear braking for this to
work.  (Thank you Thrustmaster Formula T1!!)

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Bugs
1. Sound Effects Pause
2. Invisible / Unreasonable Qualifying Times
3. Race Standing Board doesn't Update
4. Weird stuff in results.txt
5. Other Minor Bugs (yellow / green flags, tires)

Wishlist
1. Save the race, during the race
2. Better Pre/Post Race Statistics (like in F1GP)
3. A configurable Quick Race Option (like in F1GP)
4. Real-time Qualifying Sessions
5. More Realistic Driver A.I.
6. Local Yellow Flags
7. Pace Car / Number of Yellow Laps Remaining

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's some more detail for those who are interested.............

1. Sound Effects Pause
----------------------
Quite often I come across an annoying 1-2 second pause when I hit the
wall/another car before the "crash" sound effect is played. My system
is a 486SX-25 with 8Mb RAM (not the ultimate computer, but quite nippy)
and an 8bit Soundblaster (quite standard and stable). I've tested with
EMM, no EMM, 2Mb smartdrv, a clean boot and every configuration in
between, but I still get the pauses. The pauses often occur after about
the 3rd lap around a course. This is ***y annoying when I'm in the
middle of a hot race and it starts happening.

2. The Invisible / Unreasonable Qualifying Times
------------------------------------------------
On most courses, especially Cleveland, the other cars seem to get quite
fast, unseen, qualifying times. Especially at Cleveland on 100% opponents
their fastest qualifying time is about 59sec while I can only manage
about 1:10 (on Ace setup).

What I can't understand is how these cars get these times? When I'm out
qualifying and running at about 1:12 a lap (for the whole 10 minutes),
the other cars NEVER overtake !

So how can they get a faster time than me. Even when watching a replay
of the fastest qualifying car, their speed is well below mine.

I also can't understand why they then go so at a such a slower pace during
the actual race :

        Cleveland Times   Me (Ace Setup)  Other Cars (at 100%)
        ------------------------------------------------------
        Qualifying        1:10.00         0:59.00
        Race              1:12.00         1:14.00

3. Race Standing Board
----------------------
I find that whenever I overtake a couple of cars that the race standing
board (the F1 key) doesn't re-center itself. This means that you have
to constantly press F1 to reset the board, with your name in the middle.

4. Weird stuff in results.txt
-----------------------------
Here are some amazing results from the file :

Australia : Stuart Jackson Best Lap: 0:28.418 354.098mph
Vancouver : Stuart Jackson Best Lap: 0:04.333 1414.878mph

I didn't edit these, just a simple cut and paste !

5. Other Minor Bugs
-------------------
I've heard people saying that there are a few bugs with the green flag
not being in the right place or the yellow flag system doesn't work
properly.

The only experiences I've had of this was running out of fuel, while
leading the race during a yellow flag. I slowed to a complete stop and so
did all the other 25 cars ! They didn't overtake me, they just sat there
until I pressed <ESC> !

Also I found that when you smoke the wheels coming out of your pit area,
your tire temperatures don't increase. I thought that this is how the real
drivers get their tires up to temperature ?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

And here's my wishlist for the game...(and I know Papyrus might not care,
or have time to implement these changes, but wouldn't it be nice if they
did ! )

1. Save the race, during the race
---------------------------------
Yes, I know this feature is planned for Nascar, but I want it in
Indycar !

2. Better Pre/Post Race Statistics (like in F1GP)
-------------------------------------------------
Why do you have to exit to DOS to read the results.txt file?
It should have been included in the actual game, after you complete a race.

It would be nice to have the level of statistics offered in F1GP, stuff like
Fastest Lap, Lap Records, Driver Lap Times....... (within the game !)

3. A configurable Quick Race Option (like in F1GP)
--------------------------------------------------
Again, the Quick Race feature in F1GP would be very welcome in Indycar.

It could be used to start the Indy 500 on pole with 125% opponents!

This option would be best used for fun, or when you just can't be
stuffed qualifying.

4. Real-time Qualifying Sessions
--------------------------------
How come when you start a qualifying session, everybody has already raced
and scored their best times?

It would be better if everyone qualified together (on the road courses)
just to make the game more interesting / realistic.

5. More Realistic Driver A.I.
-----------------------------
I've logged thousands of laps, but I very rarely see other drivers crash,
or take someone else out.

We need to see more driver errors, mechanical failures and drivers taking
the risky moves (like Jacques on the restart at Elkhart Lake !)

6. Local Yellow Flags
---------------------
Full course yellow flags on road courses can be a pain, especially if you've
built up a nice lead. The game should introduce local area yellow flags
in most minor accidents.

7. Pace Car / Number of Yellow Laps Remaining
---------------------------------------------
When driving under a full-course yellow, you have no idea on how much longer
the yellow flag will last, therefore it's difficult to plan a good restart.

Ideally, a pace car would be brilliant, but hard to implement. A better
solution would be to have a board displayed when you cross the line (like
your pit board) that indicates how many laps of yellow are remaining.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Whew !   Thanks for letting me get that of my chest !

If anyone has any comments, or solutions to my problems (esp the SFX pauses)
then feel free to contact me.