rec.autos.simulators

On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 02:30:49 GMT, "Steve Smith"

The Momo works perfect with GT3 (and RBR, Ferrari Challenge, GT4
simply does not support it. Evil rumours say they made a deal with
Logitec to sell more of those plastic Driving Force wheels..

Btw, did you get your IB license yet? You get the ''Nike One'' concept
car, which is major fun on the Ring :)

Andre

No, I've been consumed w. other issues.  The original idea was to do a
comparison revu for Car and Driver magazine w. GT4 and MS's "answer," Forza
Motorsport.  I had thought GT4 would win hands down, but since Sony dropped
multiplayer, I'm not so sure.  Of course, Forza still isn't out, and we
already know there won't be any decent wheels for it (Logi claims MS might
not even support FF in the next Xbox), so I won't be able to finish the test
for a few months, so it's on the back-burner for the nonce.

On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:48:40 GMT, "Steve Smith"

Come on now. No one cares about console multuplayer but game reviewers
and Microsoft. At MOST ten percent of console gamers are even
connected. The idea that it's even important to a console game
(outside of multiplayer-focuses exceptions like Halo 2) is nothing
less than a myth invented by the *** media.

If you look at the business case, as a game developer, there is
currently no justification for doing online for most games. The only
error Sony made with GT4 was including online from the beginning.

Well, when Papy launched Hawaii, you could have said only 10% of computer
gamers were online then too.  A decade or so later, without the online
community, there would be NO computer auto racing to speak of.

But let's say yer right: only 10% of console gamers are online.  That makes
it about 25 million online players.  Or let's say that only 10% of console
racers are online.  That puts the figure at about 10 million.  That's
nothing to sneeze at...and it's a market that will continue to grow.

"Car guys" like the readers of Car and Driver, Road & Track etc., are, by
and large, computer illiterate.  They *might* be coaxed to try a racing game
on a console (as opposed to a PC or even a Mac), but they'd rather compete
against carbon-based intelligence, not silicon.  (All this is based on
well-known demo metrics.)  Therefore, car guys are more likely to play
console racing games if they can race against flesh & *** opponents.  The
holy grail or all racing games is to attract as many car guys as computer
geeks, thus doubling the market.

Sony and Microsoft each made 2 huge mistakes.  Sony's was to include dial-up
in their online game plan, which seriously limits what they can do online
(maybe just as well: FPSs, flight sims and racing games don't work well on
consoles, thanks to controller issues).  Microsoft's was not to include FF
in their psuedo-DirectX support, with the result that no wheel mfr. will
bother to make anything more than a Mad Katz, entry-level controller for
racing games.  I know; I've interviewed them.

The market is there.  Sony/Polyphony has sold 38 million copies of Gran
Turismo.  At $50 a pop, that's $1,900,000,000 at retail.  Compare that to
Star Wars, Spider-Man, Shrek, Titanic, Gone With the Wind, whatever...and
divide by the development cost.  Now tell me Sony isn't interested in
attracting 10% of that universe to online ***.  Or that Logitech wouldn't
like to sell 10% of them $100 wheels.

Q.E.D.?

[online ***]

I'm not arguing with you.  I too think they should have included
on-line, though I happen to be an avid racer who hasn't bought
into online.  And even with it being the solution to the pathetic
AI of GT4, I most probably still wouldn't.  Still, I would think
it would be a lucrative market.

Just a note, even with 38M sales, I'd suspect that a good third to
half of them are at best-seller prices, so perhaps an average sale
price of $35-40 ea?  Still nothing to sneeze at.  This is big
business.

Is it true that GT is Polyphony's only product?  And are they
indeed 100% part of Sony?

On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 17:54:42 GMT, "Steve Smith"

But when you take that analysis one step further, and delve into how
many of that 10% will choose to buy online games vs. unconnected ones
... it really is a trivial dent in sales. Trust me, I've done the
numbers again and again and there is no business case for a
*developer* to support online (for a publisher, looking to the
longterm gains, that's a different question).

Well I'm afraid I have to report that I'm not too impressed.

1) Not enough travel on the triggers. Why they wouldn't just model
them after a good design like the XBox triggers I can't imagine. They
have about half that travel and so feel more like "really good analog
buttons" than true triggers. Better than the PS2 buttons, but not as
good as they good be.

2) One of the triggers is busted right out of the box. The spring-back
isn't right, so it doesn't push back out to the rest position when you
let go of it. Shoddy, shoddy workmanship.

The latter is particularly annoying, since I had to order the thing
online it's going to be a huge hassle to return it, probably not worth
my effort. So unless Thrustmaster is bascially willing to replace it
on my word that it's broken, they have lost me as a customer,
permanently.

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 19:46:14 GMT, Joe62

Here's an example of this analysis:

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?section_name=pub&aid=3725

As Iwata points out, when Sony took Hot Shots Golf online it actually
sold *less* than previous versions. This is not an isolated case.
We've done an analysis of every game sold in North America over the
last 3 years. Outside of exceptions like Halo 2, online does nothing
for your sales, and sucks up tremendous amounts of development
resources.

Why would a developer ignore a feature the absence of which would be a
deal-breaker for the publisher?  Self-immolation is cheaper, flashier.

I'm fairly certain that the drop off in sales of Hot Shots Golf wasn't
due to the inclusion of online play.  Do you honestly believe that
consumers picked up the package and said "online play?  i'm not gonna
buy it"?  Sony hasn't made online play a priority for the PS2.  The
design of the hardware, the design of their online network
(non-existant).  The PS2 is not designed for online play.  The growth
of XBox Live shows that online play is the future of video games.  As
broadband continues to grow, so to will online ***.  It's inevitable.

Nope. They are developing the best online technology when the market's
ready for it. Gamecube-next will have wireless WIFI online play via a
free service. More the point though, our own analysis of sales data
confirms his point - generally, at this point, people don't want
online games.

I agree; it will be a viable market once everyone's consoles and
living rooms have easy, cheap access to the net (Nintendo's WIFI
support is a large step in this direction). I'm just saying that
currently, it makes no economic sense for a developer to spend money
on this feature. The GT team belatedly came to the same logical
conclusion ... and would have no doubt come to it sooner if not for
pressure from Sony.

Joe62

Why did the sales drop off then? It wasn't the first sequel. The
series sold well year after year. It's not an unknown phenomenon for
online support to hurt sales if the customers perceive that either the
online or the offline game has suffered for lack of focus. Which is
actually the impression I get reading this review:

http://www.racesimcentral.net/

I agree that it will eventually be a viable market. To call it "the
future of video games" is pure hyperbole however. Many people will
never want to play online games.

Joe62

Publisher's were hot on on-line about a year ago. They have also
analyzed the numbers and since wised up (outside of Sony and Microsoft
themselves of course, in which case year the pressure for online
support is much greater). If the publisher's did want it, and were
willing to pay for it, of course we'd be happy to implement it. When
they see how much it costs and what it means for sales though, they
are the ones who want to cut it.

Joe62

And I suppose if Oldsmobile had asked you in 1939 whether they should put
self-starters in automobiles, you would have taken a horse & buggy Luddite
view that electric gizmos like that were just more tinfoil in yer hat.
After all, most people *like* spinning a hand crank - it builds strength &
character.