rec.autos.simulators

by **Neil Rain** » Wed, 04 Aug 1999 04:00:00

Is it just me, or has Monaco suddenly become drivable with GPL 1.1?

I used to find it next to impossible to put in a clean lap, ie. without
unintentionally riding the barriers, careering off curbs and into
lamp-posts, and always always always demolishing the car at the chicane.

Just tried it with the new setups in GPL 1.1, and all the cars feel much
easier to cope with - I could even get round in the Lotus some of the
time, and the Brabham and Coventry are just fabulous - light and
manoeuverable with plenty of grip.

One crucial difference is that they don't get horribly unstable
accelerating out of Portier into the tunnel - that used to be an
absolute nightmare, with the car weaving all over the place.

I find the "personalities" of the car are even more apparent now - the
Coventry is almost like a go-kart, the Brabham is light and nimble
compared to the Lotus (which is still a b*gger to control), the Ferrari
is smooth as silk but feels a bit heavy and so on.

Anyone else find this, or am I just dreaming?

by **ymenar** » Wed, 04 Aug 1999 04:00:00

It could be because of this :

--------
Previously, we stated that Papyrus did not make any changes to the physics
in GPL 1.1. We were wrong.

We have learned that Papyrus did make two very subtle changes to the
physics, in addition to the changes we previously discussed. Here is a list
of all of the changes impacting car control and behavior of which we are
aware. We are assured that this is a complete list:

Ride height. Papyrus changed the minimum ride height from 1.0 to 2.5 inches.
Depending on your driving style and the setups you are using, running at 2.5
inches can make the cars seem either harder to drive or easier to drive.

Steering response. Papyrus made a small change to the steering to optimize
behavior with Force Feedback. Some drivers experience this as a slightly
softer steering response, while others notice no difference at all. Setup
adjustments can be used to offset the impact of this change.

Tire calculation. Papyrus changed one calculation relating to the
responsiveness of the tires. This is not a change in overall grip, and it is
not intended to make the cars easier or more difficult to drive. Its sole
intent is to make the tire behavior more closely approximate the behavior of
tires in the real world.

GPL 1.0 very slightly exaggerated the reduction in available lateral grip
which occurs when longitudinal forces are applied through braking or
acceleration. GPL 1.1's calculation more closely matches real world
behavior, although the difference between GPL 1.0 and 1.1 is very small.

Spring/damper interaction. Papyrus made a small change to the interaction
between the springs and dampers. This change makes the GPL cars' suspension
characteristics more closely approximate the behavior of real cars. The net
effect is a very small reduction in damping.

At this time, it is expected that the last three changes will also be found
in future Papyrus sims based on the GPL physics model.

From http://www.vroc.net/
---------

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank>
-- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/
-- May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

by **Neil Rain** » Wed, 04 Aug 1999 04:00:00

> > Is it just me, or has Monaco suddenly become drivable with GPL 1.1?

> It could be because of this :

> --------
> Previously, we stated that Papyrus did not make any changes to the physics
> in GPL 1.1. We were wrong.

> We have learned that Papyrus did make two very subtle changes to the
> physics... [SNIP]

Yes, I guess my real thought was: is it the change in the physics, or is
it just that the new default setups are so excellent!

IMO they are even better than Ali Hine's earlier efforts, so either they
improved them even further, or the physics change has had an effect, or
maybe I just got better without realizing it! ;-)

by **Peter Prochazk** » Wed, 04 Aug 1999 04:00:00

it the change in the physics, or is

The 1.1 standard setups are certainly much easier to drive than the 1.0
ones. But on the not so twisty tracks I'm always slower with the 1.1's.

Peter
Vienna, Austria

by **Don Scurlo** » Wed, 04 Aug 1999 04:00:00

From the 1.1 readme.txt:

8. NEW DEFAULT CAR SETUPS
----------------------------

New default car setups for all of the Grand Prix cars are included. The
original default setups are, generally, faster when driven by an experienced
driver than these new setups. The new setups are, generally, more forgiving
for inexperienced drivers and, within a given chassis type, have a more
consistent "feel" from track to track.

>Is it just me, or has Monaco suddenly become drivable with GPL 1.1?

>I used to find it next to impossible to put in a clean lap, ie. without
>unintentionally riding the barriers, careering off curbs and into
>lamp-posts, and always always always demolishing the car at the chicane.

>Just tried it with the new setups in GPL 1.1, and all the cars feel much
>easier to cope with - I could even get round in the Lotus some of the
>time, and the Brabham and Coventry are just fabulous - light and
>manoeuverable with plenty of grip.

>One crucial difference is that they don't get horribly unstable
>accelerating out of Portier into the tunnel - that used to be an
>absolute nightmare, with the car weaving all over the place.

>I find the "personalities" of the car are even more apparent now - the
>Coventry is almost like a go-kart, the Brabham is light and nimble
>compared to the Lotus (which is still a b*gger to control), the Ferrari
>is smooth as silk but feels a bit heavy and so on.

>Anyone else find this, or am I just dreaming?

Don Scurlock
Vancouver,B.C.

by **Neil Rain** » Wed, 04 Aug 1999 04:00:00

> From the 1.1 readme.txt:

> 8. NEW DEFAULT CAR SETUPS
> ----------------------------

> New default car setups for all of the Grand Prix cars are included. The
> original default setups are, generally, faster when driven by an experienced
> driver than these new setups. The new setups are, generally, more forgiving
> for inexperienced drivers and, within a given chassis type, have a more
> consistent "feel" from track to track.

Yes, I read that too - but my experience has been that I'm more
consistent *and* faster with the new setups.

True, my best time at the Glen (1:05.45) was set with Wolfgang Woeger's
insane oversteering Lotus setup, but I've done a 1:06.5 with the new
default setup and (more importantly) can get consistent 1:07's with it.

I seem to remember the original Lotus setup was difficult to drive (but
not as hard as WW's setup!) and it took me ages to get down to 1:07 with
it.

Then again, that was probably just me (still learning).

Anyway, I guess it just shows that consistency leads to speed...

by **gavinVQP..** » Wed, 04 Aug 1999 04:00:00

>> Is it just me, or has Monaco suddenly become drivable with GPL
1.1?

>It could be because of this :

>--------
>Previously, we stated that Papyrus did not make any changes to the
physics
>in GPL 1.1. We were wrong.

>We have learned that Papyrus did make two very subtle changes to the
>physics, in addition to the changes we previously discussed. Here is
a list
>of all of the changes impacting car control and behavior of which we
are
>aware. We are assured that this is a complete list:

>Ride height. Papyrus changed the minimum ride height from 1.0 to 2.5
inches.
>Depending on your driving style and the setups you are using, running
at 2.5
>inches can make the cars seem either harder to drive or easier to
drive.

>Steering response. Papyrus made a small change to the steering to
optimize
>behavior with Force Feedback. Some drivers experience this as a
slightly
>softer steering response, while others notice no difference at all.
Setup
>adjustments can be used to offset the impact of this change.

>Tire calculation. Papyrus changed one calculation relating to the
>responsiveness of the tires. This is not a change in overall grip,
and it is
>not intended to make the cars easier or more difficult to drive. Its
sole
>intent is to make the tire behavior more closely approximate the
behavior of
>tires in the real world.

>GPL 1.0 very slightly exaggerated the reduction in available lateral
grip
>which occurs when longitudinal forces are applied through braking or
>acceleration. GPL 1.1's calculation more closely matches real world
>behavior, although the difference between GPL 1.0 and 1.1 is very
small.

>Spring/damper interaction. Papyrus made a small change to the
interaction
>between the springs and dampers. This change makes the GPL cars'
suspension
>characteristics more closely approximate the behavior of real cars.
The net
>effect is a very small reduction in damping.

>At this time, it is expected that the last three changes will also be
found
>in future Papyrus sims based on the GPL physics model.

>From http://www.vroc.net/
>---------

Hmmmm. As small as they are, those last 3 are STILL fundamental
physics changes IMHO.

Now, if these changes are really there to make it closer to a real
car, then I'm all for them.

However, if 'closer to real' is actually a cover for 'make it easier
to improve mass market appeal to make more cash', then I'm frankly
dissappointed.

I'm sure Papy did do it for reality, but please, Randy, Eric, anyone
else at Papy, please tell me it isn't for the latter.

Gavin Thomas
C%p Website ;) - www.sharknose.freeserve.co.uk

Please remove the VQPGSG before replying by email.

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by **gavinMEE..** » Wed, 04 Aug 1999 04:00:00