rec.autos.simulators

I am open to someone explaining to me which they feel is better, GP2 or
F1RS?  I am talking in all aspects, including 3rd party add-ons and
modifications from websites.  I want to like F1RS, but just cannot 'click'
with it.  It appears people are still making track updates, carsets, sounds,
etc for GP2 and I still love it after almost 2 years.  Which driving model
is more realistic? Which AI is more realistic?  Thanks in advance.

--
-Jeff

"Why should I use tech support when I can fix it myself?"

I enjoy both games because they both have their own caracteristics. The
graphics in F1RS are much better than GP2, and the computers in F1RS react
in a better way than GP2 (In my opinion). But I still like to play GP2 for
the way that the tracks are designed and a couples of other things.

So you can keep both games and it is always good to go back to a game you
haven't played for a long time.

Virtual Freak

You've answered your own question, haven't you?

You are not going to play something over and over that you don't "click"
with.  This is entertainment....personal entertainment at that....and
you do not, therefore, require any other opinion than your own. You are
not being *forced* to like something.

Now guess which one you will delete!

Why delete either one? With some add on tracks and carsets, GP2 is the best
CART sim around!

Don

    < Snip >

    < Snip >

   I agree with Kennewell's comments.  

   However if you really want to like F1RS, I'll toss this at you.  

   You and I will never drive a Formula One car.  We do drive
road cars.  Well, I don't have any idea how old you are, I'm
making an assumption here.  

   When driving in GP2, I felt I was driving a vehicle that had
as much in common with my car, in terms of "feeling", as an
X-Wing Star Wars fighter.  But I learned this *** machine.  
And I had a great time.  

   When I got F1RS, I was almost unable to keep it on the road.  
All the things I learned from GP2 just didn't seem to apply.  
Then I did something that would never have worked with GP2, I
drove it like a CAR!!!   Techniques I've learned from 30 years
of pushing Sprites, Volvos, Alfas and SAABs through the curves
on the twisty mountain roads found here in the Northwest U.S.
suddenly applied to a racing simulator!  

   There are many subtitles a sim manufacture needs to consider
in order to get a sim to "feel" right.  The most salient feature
of the F1RS handing model, IMHO, is the way they deal with what
is called "slip angle".  In simple terms, this is the angle
between where a rolling wheel is pointing, and where it is
going.  Tires "squirm" and slide as they try to turn a car.  
As speed increases, so does this slide, but the tire still has
adheasion, until the slip angle is exceeded.  

   In the cars I drive, this angle is the source of that
delicious feeling of*** the vehicle close to the edge of a
slide, but in control.  I believe this is also the "four wheel
steering" feeling that many GP2 fans don't like in F1RS.  

   When I drove GP2, I was either "on the rails", or I was
backward on the track.  There just wasn't any apparent slip
angle, that I could recognize.  

   John Wallace, one of the respected regulars in this group,
has stated that a light, winged, hyper powerful and fat wheeled
vehicle will have a very small slip angle.  

   I have probably recovered from an impending spin in GP2 5
times in my life.  People have quoted F1 drivers as saying
real F1 cars are VERY hard to recover.  

   As stated above, I will never drive an F1 car.  Perhaps
GP2 has a totally unrealistic driving model, but one that does
capture the small slip angle.  

   I have driven street cars, F1RS sure feels right from that
experience.  Perhaps F1RS is a very realistic F1 simulator, but
with a little more slip angle than a real F1 car has.  Or maybe
F1 cars are so different, if it feels anything like a road car,
it has to be wrong.  

   Or maybe one if these models F1 cars perfectly.  

   Perhaps neither is even close.  Until "Driver X" or
Schumacher care to enlighten us, we will never know.  

   Anyway, I'm going with F1RS because it's just so much fun.  

   But like Bruce stated, if GP2 is right for you, go with it.  

   Have fun.  

                                                        Larry

On Fri, 22 May 1998 19:26:48 -0700, Laurence Lindstrom

This is generally so in a formula one car, and in fact many people
thought slicks would never take off in racing because of the lack of a
large and exploitable slip angle (we're going back a few years here,
and boy were they ever wrong!).

It's an aspect of the tyres more than the car, but having a lot of
downforce and a lot of power to break the car loose will certainly not
help - things will always happen suddenly, far more so than in any
road car. We are also hindered by the fact that we cannot feel what is
happening - not to say that it would do us mere mortals any good, but
a race driver can feel when the tyre is about to slide, or some of
them can at least. Any tyre will resist the attempt to deform it (the
slip angle) and tries to snap back into shape - this can be felt
through the steering in a similar manner to castor, as the car wants
to straighten itself out (when you take a turn in your car and release
the steering the wheel spins back to centre - this is the tyre "snap"
and castor at work with a self aligning or self centering torque).
This "snap" begins to fall off before the tyre's grip does (very
slightly before), and a skilled driver can feel the steering begin to
get ever so slightly light in his hand before the grip falls off, and
adjust the steering, throttle etc accordingly. We are not (yet)
afforded this basic necessity.

Remember also that race tyres (and hence race car performance) will
vary enormously from road car performance (and hence our perceptions)
since they run hot, and not only that but varying degrees of hot. Road
car tyres are, to all intents and purposes, cold. Racecars run hot,
between 150 and 350 degrees, and they have a period of heating and
cooling built into that. If you run the stadium section at Hockenheim
your tyres will be hot for the all important first turn, but by the
time you reach the Jim Clark chicane they will be much cooler, warmed
only by rolling resistance (which your high pressures and low
downforce will be doing their best to minimise. If youre tyre heats at
50 deg/sec or so (where is Doug when I need him!) it will be no
surprise that your car behaves differently in that chicane than in a
similar one when the tyres were hot. This too can lead to
unpredictable behaviour and sudden unexpected spins.

Whether GP2 modelled that is another matter entirely! I don't recall
temps or pressures at all which was one of the major failings.

That's pretty much it. An F1 car corners up to 5 deg of slip or so for
max lateral g, and beyond that it dramatically increases heat
generation (and thus wear) before rapidly falling off. A road car
generates good grip at slip up to 10 deg or beyond, and while this may
not sound like much it makes it a lot more forgiving to drive.

I suspect F1RS was a bit of a reality check, a compromise between
being realistic and being plain frustrating to drive.

Cheers!
John

PS - Doug, Alison, please jump in and correct any inconsistencies or
plain old nonsense, you guys know this stuff way better than me :-)