rec.autos.simulators

On Sun, 2 Nov 1997 10:05:10 -0800, "Hedwig Poon"

dmac

Alot will depend on how well it is implemented in the sw.
i.e. does it really help you?
i.e. help the simulation aspect?
i.e. help lap times?
i.e. after learning the tactile clues, would you be lost without it?
(like sound is today?  I doubt many people can run faster laps without
sound than with them, that tire squeel feedback IS helpful)

Alot will depend on how well it is implemented in the hw.  
i.e. As Jim Sokoloff has warned us already, heavy duty force feedback
systems are expensive.  The DC motor in the Daytona USA (tm) arcade
game probably costs more than $100.  See the Happ Controls catalog!

I doubt it will get it's power from the game port! :-)  
Or the PC power supply.  :-)
FF wheels will have to plug into the wall outlet to get muscle!
They might even spec them with watt or torque strength measurements
like they do speakers today!

I'd be willing to bet you would like a FF edition of the TSW alot more
than you will like the ActLab Force RS Wheel?  Can they both be a good
value on someone's price/performance curve?  You bet!

--
Best Wishes!!!
Robert Huggins
Raleigh, NC

It will make faster lap times because you are receiving additional feedback.
Right now you receive sound (tires squealing and engine tone noises) and
graphic feedback, with the addition of steering force feedback you will have
an extra channel of feedback with which to make decisions. If you start to
oversteer you will feel the steering wheel go light (if the game has a good
model and was programmed correctly). If you start to understeer the wheel
will go a little less light and you will have it locked. You will soon learn
how to turn in and raise the force curve to the optimum adhesion level. All
of this is based on real world driving physics. The key is if the game
developers make their sim based on a real world dynamic model.

John

(snip)
i.e. help lap times?
(unsnip)

I fail to see why FF should help lap times!  If the intent is to
simulate realism then the advent off wheel shake, effort needed to turn
etc. should make fast lap times harder to attain, not easier!

Bruce.

I think personally its better used in flight sims until it gets more
advanced, I dont think I want my wheel fighting me when I'm trying for
that last 10th of a second :)! Of course this is my opinion only and I'm
probably in the minority.

Trev

I saw my force feedbck joy stick yesterday at the mall.
It was a demo that was pretty neat. It had
5 demos the experience  helicopter,machinegun,boxing.
desiel motor chanking up. It was real enough.

dmac

Well, if you're in the minority Trevor, welcome to my world! :-)

You are dead right about "seat of the pants".....look at real life,
where we drive cars with power-assisted steering and, on some of the
older models, there is damn-all feedback through the wheel.
Yet we still feel, via "seat-of-the-pants",  some connection between our
bodies and the road wheels.

FF will never replicate this sixth-sense.  As far as I'm concerned an
artificially-shaking steering wheel in  a simulator would only give me
the impression that my wheels needed balancing :-)

Bruce.

Right now we would have to pay a license fee to use the technology,
design and build all the mechanics and then try to sell them for way
more than the ACT RS. They have the advantage of cheap labor and they
dont give a damn about the quality, we do :)!

Trev

FWIW, I tried MS CART PR Trial with my MS SideWinder ForceFeedback Pro
yesterday and when the car wandered into the sandy bits, the stick just
rattled (kinda like a buzzing pager).  I was hoping for effects like
variable resistance around corners as speeds rise.

Having said that, I still think the Act Labs RS Force is a excellent deal on
a wheel (I said "think" since no consumer has prolly seen it) and one really
needs a wheel to appreciate driving sims.  The force feedback feature can be
disabled (at least in CART PR Trial).

FWIW #2, the joystick is kinda kewl for other games.  It shipped with MDK
Mission Laguna Beach and Shadows of the Empire, the feedback of the recoil
of a gun is very nice (a lot more muted than the aforementioned rattle).

My 2cents.

HedgeHog

Joe

Trevor et al. Force feedback is getting a ton of press right now because
to the uninformed it seems pretty cool. For the *** driving
simulation guys right now force feedback doesn't have much to
offer...but not because of the hardware. Hardware is important, but the
greater part of the equation is the software. Current games that
implement force feedback are mostly arcade games. I don't think that you
really feel much from your steering wheel in terms of bumps and
collisions. Sure if you hit a curb or a wall the wheel may jerk out of
your hands. But overall the current implementations are arcade tricks,
not immersive additions to a simulation. My personal philosophy is as
follows. I drive a sports car and race it in Solo II competition. Games
are cool, but not the real thing. But lets look at what they can do. The
graphics are great, the sounds are great. Assuming horsepower is equal
then traction becomes the most important factor. Where do we get
traction input? From the steering wheel for the front wheels. We use
several different inputs for the rear wheels. (assuming a rear wheel
drive car). The sound of the engine (wheel slip = higher revs) and the
feel of the car kicking the tail end out. Ok. What can we simulate to
create an immersive experience. You can do a wheel and put the data in
the program so that the force you get back is traction data, not just
collision data. You can build a full motion simulator and emulate the
rear end sliding out. (not very likely) They already have the capability
to partially give you cues for rear end traction. (the sound of the
engine). With proper programming they could make a force feedback wheel
give you VERY good cues for front end traction. That is when force
feedback will allow faster times in SIMULATIONS. For arcade games it
will always just be a cool toy. Blah blah blah..I ramble on.
I think force feedback will become a part of *** and simulation, but
not how it is currently being implemented.

Thanks

Steve Carter
ThrustMaster, Inc.

<HTML>
I went to EBX today and they had a setup for a Microsoft force feedback
joystick...&nbsp; they had it set up so you could push buttons to feel
the different situations.&nbsp; One was a magnetic force, a gun, helicopter,
sword (light saber), and boxing.&nbsp; It was cool.. but its not to the
point where I would want it in my sim steering wheel...&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
The most impressive of them was the sord... because as you hit swords...
it forced your hand in the corresponding direction... which was pretty
cool.&nbsp;&nbsp; Again....&nbsp; this is "neat" and a bit gimmicky...&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
I would use the joystick in games like dark forces, or the sequel now out
Jedi Knight...&nbsp; but I wouldnt want it for N2 until they can get the
"physics" of the response down better.&nbsp; I dont want just some random
jolt when i go over the curb or pull when I slide...&nbsp;&nbsp; I went
specific and realistic response if thats what the wheel would be intended
to do.&nbsp;&nbsp; Also... heres a "dream wish" for N3...&nbsp;&nbsp; how
about blowing tires ????&nbsp;&nbsp; especially when you run over debris
from wrecked cars...&nbsp;&nbsp; you could then add that into the force
feedback wheel to feel you running over the debris =)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Just a thought

<P>Scott B. Husted
<BR><A HREF="http://www.racesimcentral.net/~sbhusted">http://www.racesimcentral.net/~sbhusted</A>
<BR>&nbsp;

<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Trevor et al. Force feedback is getting a ton of
press right now because
<BR>to the uninformed it seems pretty cool. For the *** driving
<BR>simulation guys right now force feedback doesn't have much to
<BR>offer...but not because of the hardware. Hardware is important, but
the
<BR>greater part of the equation is the software. Current games that
<BR>implement force feedback are mostly arcade games. I don't think that
you
<BR>really feel much from your steering wheel in terms of bumps and
<BR>collisions. Sure if you hit a curb or a wall the wheel may jerk out
of
<BR>your hands. But overall the current implementations are arcade tricks,
<BR>not immersive additions to a simulation. My personal philosophy is
as
<BR>follows. I drive a sports car and race it in Solo II competition. Games
<BR>are cool, but not the real thing. But lets look at what they can do.
The
<BR>graphics are great, the sounds are great. Assuming horsepower is equal
<BR>then traction becomes the most important factor. Where do we get
<BR>traction input? From the steering wheel for the front wheels. We use
<BR>several different inputs for the rear wheels. (assuming a rear wheel
<BR>drive car). The sound of the engine (wheel slip = higher revs) and
the
<BR>feel of the car kicking the tail end out. Ok. What can we simulate
to
<BR>create an immersive experience. You can do a wheel and put the data
in
<BR>the program so that the force you get back is traction data, not just
<BR>collision data. You can build a full motion simulator and emulate the
<BR>rear end sliding out. (not very likely) They already have the capability
<BR>to partially give you cues for rear end traction. (the sound of the
<BR>engine). With proper programming they could make a force feedback wheel
<BR>give you VERY good cues for front end traction. That is when force
<BR>feedback will allow faster times in SIMULATIONS. For arcade games it
<BR>will always just be a cool toy. Blah blah blah..I ramble on.
<BR>I think force feedback will become a part of *** and simulation,
but
<BR>not how it is currently being implemented.

<P>Thanks

<P>Steve Carter
<BR>ThrustMaster, Inc.

<BR>> >
<BR>> > (snip)
<BR>> > i.e. help lap times?
<BR>> > (unsnip)
<BR>> >
<BR>> > I fail to see why FF should help lap times!&nbsp; If the intent
is to
<BR>> > simulate realism then the advent off wheel shake, effort needed
to
<BR>> turn
<BR>> > etc. should make fast lap times harder to attain, not easier!
<BR>> >
<BR>> > Bruce.
<BR>>
<BR>> Bruce I agree with you on FF, there just isnt any good way to make
it
<BR>> totally applicable to driving sims because it lacks the most important
<BR>>
<BR>> feel of all, seat of the pants :(.
<BR>>
<BR>>
<BR>> Trev</BLOCKQUOTE>
&nbsp;</HTML>