rec.autos.simulators

by **Mike Adam** » Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:00:00

Please post the facts to back up the accusation, or would that be too much
to ask?

> > My bet - someone's figured out GPL's online code really good and has a
bot
> > that makes it look sorta like its warping, but just moves it really far
> > ahead on the track...which would explain why they were all 59:xx's and
not a
> > 1:00:xx or a 58:xx in there too much.

> > --
> > Kirk Lane

> > ICQ: 28171652
> > BRT #187

> > "It goes down the same as a thousand before
> > No one's gettin' smarter, no one's learnin the score
> > The never ending spree of death and *** and hate
> > Is gonna tie your own rope"
> > -'Come Out And Play', The Offspring

> > > This evening I had an online race at Watkins Glen, with 13 other
> > > people. One guy was making constant laps of 59:xx.
> > > I wanted to know how he did this, so after a lap or 3 I quit the race
> > > and watched him. And I saw very strange things.

> > > At allmost every corner, he drove into the grass, and his engine made
> > > such high rpm's that I thought his engine would blow immediately. He
> > > then dissappeared completely, and a second later he was on the track,
> > > at a perfect line, and further ahead than he would have been normally.

> > > The first time I thought it could be a warping problem. But it
> > > happened at EVERY corner. Other people started to watch him too, and
> > > also noticed this. The guy drove on and on, constantly driving 59:xx
> > > laps. According to his braking points and driving style he normally
> > > would drive in the 1:06 - 1:07 zone.

> > > Perhaps it wasn't cheating, and it was a warping problem, but after
> > > everyone who watched him started to wonder. Nobody had warping
> > > problems during that race, and the 59:xx guy didn't jump left and
> > > right on the track as normally seen with warping problems.

> > > Anyone else saw something like this online?

> > > Andre

by **Johan Foedere** » Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:00:00

Someone please hand me bucket o'water.... kssshhh

Let's ignore this thread until people have cooled and than look at what
happened again. With all this flaming we'll never know the truth.

// Johan

> > Sigh...

> > Ok, I should have said GPL: Possible cheating detected. Excuse me.
> > Watching this guy driving constant 59:xx laps made me sick, especially
> > seeing how he did it. I couldn't imagine that it was a warp problem,
> > since he drove into the grass at every corner and suddenly was back on
> > the track, much further ahead than he would normally have been.

> > At least ten people were watching this, and after the race someone
> > asked him if he had any idea how this happened. The only thing he said
> > was '***!!!', and then he disappeared.
> > Problem is, English is not my native language as you would have
> > guessed, and I haven't got the faintest clue what *** means.
> > But I don't feel that it was an explanantion for his driving...

> > Three people (including me) were driving in the race and suddenly saw
> > him appear in front of us. I watched this again in the replay, he was
> > driving WAY behind me, and suddenly he disappeared for a second, and
> > then he drove in front of me.

> > Anyway, I really hope this was a warping problem.

> That is probably what it is. You should have thought some more, before you
> started on the topic.

> > By the way Mr. Adams. you've got a serious attitude problem. Something
> > I really hate is all these flames going on on the newsgroups, and I
> > know I'm going to start one if I really tell you what I think of you
> > at this moment.

> Hey, bud, by all means, step up to keyboard, and wiggle your way out of it.
> Tell me how it is OK for you to make an accusation of online cheating, when
> you don't have the facts? Remeber, YOU started your topic off, by saying
> you detected cheating, and that ain't good. By what means did you use for
> the detection? Just looking for cold hard facts, on my end. By the way,
> did you know that in America, you are innocent, until PROVEN guilty? How
> would you like it if someone accused you of the same thing, on mere
> speculation? You probably wouldn't like it.

> > The topic of my post was not correct, I admit, but there was no need
> > to attack me like that. Never forget that you're dealing with real
> > persons here. In real life you wouldn't attack me like that.
> > I hope for you :)

> You bet your ass I would, if you accused me of something, without the facts.
> Hey Andre, you must have lots of free time on your hands, if you can sit
> around, and watch someone turn laps, online.

> > Andre

> > > Why don't you MAKE SURE cheating IS involved, before you use the topic
> "
> > >GPL: Online cheating detected !"? Read your last sentence stupid, (So I
> > >really thought there was cheating involved...)
> > >and I think you will find your biggest problem. You were thinking.

by **Steve Ferguso** » Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:00:00

: That is probably what it is. You should have thought some more, before you
: started on the topic.

I'd say he thought a lot, and came to a logical conclusion, based on the
nature of what he observed, that this did not fit with warping.

: Hey, bud, by all means, step up to keyboard, and wiggle your way out of it.
: Tell me how it is OK for you to make an accusation of online cheating, when
: you don't have the facts? Remeber, YOU started your topic off, by saying
: you detected cheating, and that ain't good. By what means did you use for

So you're the champion of wrongfully accused GPL online racers worldwide?

:> The topic of my post was not correct, I admit, but there was no need
:> to attack me like that. Never forget that you're dealing with real
:> persons here. In real life you wouldn't attack me like that.
:> I hope for you :)

: You bet your ass I would, if you accused me of something, without the facts.
: Hey Andre, you must have lots of free time on your hands, if you can sit
: around, and watch someone turn laps, online.

Um, but I don't believe the accusation was levelled personally at you,
unless you happen to be the individual who signed up, turned the magic
laps, bellowed a hearty "***!" and then vanished.

I'd say Andre was making good use of his time. If someone showed up on an
online N3 or GPL race and started turning much faster laps than everyone
else, I'd probably watch them, if for anything to see where they are
getting those extra seconds from. Now, as for produtive use of time Mr.
Adams...

Stephen

by **Antti Markus Pete** » Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:00:00

I sure wouldn't blame you for crying wolf in this case, even if done
a bit prematurely. After all, you didn't mention any names, it wasn't
a personal attack, you merely expressed your concern.

Maybe Mike has sometimes been falsely accused of cheating in online games
which would more than explain his little outburst. Everyone here can
imagine how utterly infuriating it would feel to be accused of cheating
if you had just put up the performance of your lifetime.

Still, I'm not surprised you started to suspect something. Unless you
questioned the guy's (gal's) integrity in an EXTREMELY rude manner and
had already judged him, his behavior was - in my experience - very
representative of a typical cheater.

For someone who is NOT cheating, it is usually VERY important to try to
reason with the accusers, to clear one's name and convince the others
that the masterful performance is a result of haaard work, rather than a
bagful of devious shortcuts. If you've really worked relentlessly to
improve your performance (likely in GPL), you're proud of your
achievements (whatever they may be, you've paid the price in sweat and
tears) and won't take it lightly when someone accuses you of cheating.
OTOH, real cheaters rarely bother to take the trouble of trying to put up
an Oscar performance in order to convince anyone. They tend to take the
shortest route, that's what it's all about...

From this perspective the behavior you described is indeed a bit
suspicious, UNLESS the guy is just so god damn superior to everyone else
that he's constantly being accused of cheating and has grown tired of it
all. Not likely, for a wealth of reasons.

I suppose what people fear here is that paranoia starts to rise its ugly
head and these accusations become commonplace in GPL online community,
littering this relatively peaceful harbor which could probably be viewed
as one of the most mature & clean online *** communities there is.

---
Antti Markus Peteri

15 miles. your dim light shines from so far away

- Soul Asylum, Promises Broken

by **Mike Adam** » Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:00:00

It WAS me, you jerk, and NO, I DO NOT CHEAT!

> : That is probably what it is. You should have thought some more, before
you
> : started on the topic.

> I'd say he thought a lot, and came to a logical conclusion, based on the
> nature of what he observed, that this did not fit with warping.

> : Hey, bud, by all means, step up to keyboard, and wiggle your way out of
it.
> : Tell me how it is OK for you to make an accusation of online cheating,
when
> : you don't have the facts? Remeber, YOU started your topic off, by
saying
> : you detected cheating, and that ain't good. By what means did you use
for

> So you're the champion of wrongfully accused GPL online racers worldwide?

> :> The topic of my post was not correct, I admit, but there was no need
> :> to attack me like that. Never forget that you're dealing with real
> :> persons here. In real life you wouldn't attack me like that.
> :> I hope for you :)

> : You bet your ass I would, if you accused me of something, without the
facts.
> : Hey Andre, you must have lots of free time on your hands, if you can sit
> : around, and watch someone turn laps, online.

> Um, but I don't believe the accusation was levelled personally at you,
> unless you happen to be the individual who signed up, turned the magic
> laps, bellowed a hearty "***!" and then vanished.

> I'd say Andre was making good use of his time. If someone showed up on an
> online N3 or GPL race and started turning much faster laps than everyone
> else, I'd probably watch them, if for anything to see where they are
> getting those extra seconds from. Now, as for produtive use of time Mr.
> Adams...

> Stephen

by **Andre Warrin** » Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:00:00

If someone is contstantly running 59:xx laps, yes, I stay to watch him
doing this. I don't think this is a waste of time. Studying other
driver can be VERY helpfull in improving your own driving.
I waited untill after the race, like everyone who dropped out of the
race (realistic damage and no shift-r allowed, so quite some people
dropped out). We were all waiting to hear his comments of this
performance, and all we got was '***!!!'.
I think it's normal we all got the 'chating' feeling by his reaction.
If he really could drive like this, he would be proud, and he wouldn't
react that way. If this happenend to me, and I knew it was a warping
problem, I also would talk to the other drivers about this after the
race.
Not that he was obligated to talk to us after the race, but it would
have been polite.

Look up that last word in your dictionary, by the way.

But really Mike, you should work on your attitude. I guess you're
really young, but when you get older, you can get into serious
emotional and relationship problems if you keep up this offensive
attitude.

I tried to make an apology in my former post, by stating that I should
have used the word 'probably' in the topic, allthough my the post
itself I explained what happened very clearly (... maybe it was a
warping problem...).
I really can't see any reason for your behaviour.

Andre

PS I love that typical 'but here in AMERICA...' bla bla :)

by **Andre Warrin** » Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:00:00

Uhhh... Steve, what does '***!!!' mean?

Andre

by **Mike Adam** » Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:00:00

> : It WAS me, you jerk, and NO, I DO NOT CHEAT!

> My apologies.

Accepted.

by **Douglas Sharp** » Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:00:00

Mike,

You are truely a total ***!

EVERY post I've ever seen from you has been negitive. You're always flamming
someone for something.

And talk about getting your facts before spewing.... You did it to me last
week about NL and the AI line at Riverside, remember? "He comes across as
some kind of expert, but he's probably just some wannabe.....". BTW - I
really did drive there with the SCCA.

Why don't you grow up, learn some manners and contiribute instead of being a
jerk all the time?

>> So Andre was right and it WAS cheating!

>Please post the facts to back up the accusation, or would that be too much
>to ask?

>> > My bet - someone's figured out GPL's online code really good and has a
>bot
>> > that makes it look sorta like its warping, but just moves it really far
>> > ahead on the track...which would explain why they were all 59:xx's and
>not a
>> > 1:00:xx or a 58:xx in there too much.

>> > --
>> > Kirk Lane

>> > ICQ: 28171652
>> > BRT #187

>> > "It goes down the same as a thousand before
>> > No one's gettin' smarter, no one's learnin the score
>> > The never ending spree of death and *** and hate
>> > Is gonna tie your own rope"
>> > -'Come Out And Play', The Offspring

>> > > This evening I had an online race at Watkins Glen, with 13 other
>> > > people. One guy was making constant laps of 59:xx.
>> > > I wanted to know how he did this, so after a lap or 3 I quit the race
>> > > and watched him. And I saw very strange things.

>> > > At allmost every corner, he drove into the grass, and his engine made
>> > > such high rpm's that I thought his engine would blow immediately. He
>> > > then dissappeared completely, and a second later he was on the track,
>> > > at a perfect line, and further ahead than he would have been
normally.

>> > > The first time I thought it could be a warping problem. But it
>> > > happened at EVERY corner. Other people started to watch him too, and
>> > > also noticed this. The guy drove on and on, constantly driving 59:xx
>> > > laps. According to his braking points and driving style he normally
>> > > would drive in the 1:06 - 1:07 zone.

>> > > Perhaps it wasn't cheating, and it was a warping problem, but after
>> > > everyone who watched him started to wonder. Nobody had warping
>> > > problems during that race, and the 59:xx guy didn't jump left and
>> > > right on the track as normally seen with warping problems.

>> > > Anyone else saw something like this online?

>> > > Andre

by **Terry Welc** » Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:00:00

Mr. Adams, if you hadn't so overzealously attacked Andre to begin with
today, we would have never known or suspected that you were the driver
with the abnormally performing car. We also would not have experienced
your anger. If you think you have been wronged, you are taking an
awfully roundabout route to solving the problem. If I find a spill on
the den floor, say "Somebody spilled something here!", and have my
daughter run up to me shrieking about being falsely accused, damn right
I will suspect her of making the mess. You are acting like an angry
***ager - please get a grip and drop the matter unless you have
something constructive to add. You might just be one hell of a good
driver who was experiencing warping problems on a very consistent
network connection. If so, just say so and stop shrieking, please.

Thank you.

> > So Andre was right and it WAS cheating!

> Please post the facts to back up the accusation, or would that be too
much
> to ask?

> > > My bet - someone's figured out GPL's online code really good and
has a
> bot
> > > that makes it look sorta like its warping, but just moves it
really far
> > > ahead on the track...which would explain why they were all
59:xx's and
> not a
> > > 1:00:xx or a 58:xx in there too much.

> > > --
> > > Kirk Lane

> > > ICQ: 28171652
> > > BRT #187

> > > "It goes down the same as a thousand before
> > > No one's gettin' smarter, no one's learnin the score
> > > The never ending spree of death and *** and hate
> > > Is gonna tie your own rope"
> > > -'Come Out And Play', The Offspring

> > > > This evening I had an online race at Watkins Glen, with 13
other
> > > > people. One guy was making constant laps of 59:xx.
> > > > I wanted to know how he did this, so after a lap or 3 I quit
the race
> > > > and watched him. And I saw very strange things.

> > > > At allmost every corner, he drove into the grass, and his
engine made
> > > > such high rpm's that I thought his engine would blow
immediately. He
> > > > then dissappeared completely, and a second later he was on the
track,
> > > > at a perfect line, and further ahead than he would have been
normally.

> > > > The first time I thought it could be a warping problem. But it
> > > > happened at EVERY corner. Other people started to watch him
too, and
> > > > also noticed this. The guy drove on and on, constantly driving
59:xx
> > > > laps. According to his braking points and driving style he
normally
> > > > would drive in the 1:06 - 1:07 zone.

> > > > Perhaps it wasn't cheating, and it was a warping problem, but
after
> > > > everyone who watched him started to wonder. Nobody had warping
> > > > problems during that race, and the 59:xx guy didn't jump left
and
> > > > right on the track as normally seen with warping problems.

> > > > Anyone else saw something like this online?

> > > > Andre

Sent via Deja.com http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Before you buy.

by **Terry Welc** » Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:00:00

Thanks, Mike... I had just asked you for an ounce of calm in the
original thread, and found it immediately after posting.

> > : It WAS me, you jerk, and NO, I DO NOT CHEAT!

> > My apologies.

> Accepted.

> > Stephen

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

by **Joachim Blu** » Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:00:00

Hmm, if it was you, you're surely able to explain what "***" means,
aren't you?
Please tell me!!!

Crash

Mike Adams schrieb:

by **Steve Ferguso** » Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:00:00

: It WAS me, you jerk, and NO, I DO NOT CHEAT!

My apologies. This was not clear.
Stephen

by **Andre Warrin** » Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:00:00

Yes, it was too prematurely, but indeed I was very concerned about
this.

While watching him, we all were affraid that he was cheating, as I
explained in my former posts. And like you said, his reaction after
the race didn't take away our concerns...

According to his driving style, that's a definately no. Other drivers
were clearly faster than him, but he just disappeared at every corner
and reappeared in front of the other drivers.

The kind of warping we were seeing yesterday was completely new to all
of us. Now that Remco stated that this kind of warping happens more
often on that specific GPL server, I think it's all cleared up now,
and there's absolutely no reason for paranoia.

Oh, Mike, if you're reading this: the way Steve and Antti react is how
civilized people react.

Andre

by **Kurt Steinboc** » Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:00:00

>It WAS me, you jerk, and NO, I DO NOT CHEAT!

Okay, I believe you. But, based on your reaction just after the race, and
those since, I'd have to say you're the jerk here.

Kurt