rec.autos.simulators

by **Joe L** » Thu, 29 Mar 2001 08:42:36

I am perfectly willing to take Papy at their word regarding a patch but
there has been no word. There are two possible reasons for this:

1. They are incapable of communication
or
2. They are unwilling to communicate.

If there is a third possibility, what it is? If there is only these two
then in my skeptical mind neither of these possibilities bode well. In the
real world as it stands now I have a choice of either keeping a game I
cannot accept in its present state or getting back the $45 I paid for it. I
choose the cash. And, as I said, your faith may be rewarded. In which case I
shall run down to the store and again purchase NASCAR 4 and it will give me
the greatest pleasure to take all the "I TOLD YOU SO!'s" you or anyone else
care to hand out.
There are still a few days until the cutoff for returning the game for a
refund. I await some word from Papy. I will believe what they say. If Papy
says nothing then nothing is what I will believe.

by **Don Burnett** » Thu, 29 Mar 2001 10:08:35

Very true, in fact most of the guys working on the product came from our
ranks.

--
Don Burnette
D Burnette in N4

Some people do nothing wrong.
The problem is, they do nothing.
And THAT is wrong.

> I used to think just like you Joe. Papyrus is different. Largely because
> most of the guys who work on the product play it just as much or more than
> we do. I almost think they would make a patch with our without funding.
They
> want to play it.

> Yes it's blind faith, but it's an educated blind faith.

> Tom

> > Yours and others here are the expressions of faith that I mentioned
> in
> > the original post. If your comment on Hasbro's financial well being is
> > saying that there are instances where a company might view a certain set
> of
> > circumstances and then decide it more profitable to dump faulty software
> on
> > an unsuspecting market then immediately abandon that software instead
of
> > fixing it I agree completely. But you seem to be implying that it is
> > impossible for Papy to find itself in such a set of cricumstances or to
> make
> > such a decision. Here I disagree.
> > You are correct when you say "Hasbro's financial well being doesn't
> > depend on stuff like Gunship!" but remember that it is equally true that
> > Sierra's financial well being doesn't depend on stuff like NASCAR 4.
> However
> > strong the reputation of Papy it is certainly no stronger than the
> > reputation Microprose once enjoyed.
> > You may have faith and that faith may eventually be rewarded but I
> > prefer to operate on what is proven to exist. What exists now is a
flawed
> > NASCAR 4 and a totally silent Sierra/Papy. Those who bought Gunship! and
> had
> > faith in Hasbro/Microprose may see certain uncomfortable similarities.
For
> > as long as Sierra /Papy choose to remain silent; for that long will the
> > safest course be to assume that there will be no patch and the N4 we
have
> > now is all we are ever going to get. Those who are willing to accept N4
as
> > it is now may do so with my complete blessing. Those who cannot accept
N4
> as
> > it is now may return it for a refund with my complete blessing. If
> > Sierra/Papy dont fix N4 everyone is happy. If Sierra/Papy do fix N4
those
> > who returned it can buy it once again and apply the fix and everyone is
> > still happy. Those who cannot accept N4 as it is now but keeps it in the
> > hope of some future fix may find the long term relationship they hoped
for
> > is just a one-night-stand. So far the boy friend is not returning our
> calls.

> > > the difference is,

> > > Hasbro's financial well being doesn't depend on stuff like Gunship!
> (which
> > I'll
> > > go on record as saying easily had the best terrain graphics in a helo
> sim
> > to
> > > date), whereas Papy's livelihood very much depends on N4, which may as
> > well be
> > > the only title they have.

> > Yes, Gunship! is beautuful and had the programmers been premitted to
carry
> > out the original plans Gunship! would have been THE helo sim but
Gunship!
> > was ***d in its crib. Now we have the infant NASCAR 4.

by **Dave Henri** » Thu, 29 Mar 2001 11:18:36

They listed about a half-dozen developers that team with infogrames...no
mention
of microprose at all. Kinda makes me wanna go find my very first Commodore
64
flight sim...F15 and dig it out. (bombing triangles...shooting down
triangles, landing by overflying triangles....OY! those were the days.
dave henrie

by **Dave Henri** » Thu, 29 Mar 2001 11:27:57

<snipsy>
yes there are more possibilities...I'll fly one by you...
papyrus has a history of working methodically and privately when building
patches.
They are not ID. They do not throw out a quick fix and and allow the world
to beta
test for them. They did try that with N3's patches and it quickly got out
of control.
From what I heard it was supposed to be a small limited beta testing that
became public
by the force of the internet.
Now...as to another Papyrus pattern. They often use the first release to
beta test for
what-ever items are also in the pipeline. The multiplayer screens easily
indicate they plan at LEAST one if not two additons to the N4 line. So they
HAVE to fix N4 if they hope to use it for the other products. This is
similiar to the patching process for N3 then that was applied to NL and the
CTS package.
Finally a scenario know one seems to be aware of. At least one member of
the N3
multiplayer communty has filed 'cease and desist' orders aagainst several of
his former partners and possibly Papyrus also. (this is rumoured with no
proof as yet)
If a C&D order is in effect...Papyrus cannot move forward until that problem
is resolved.
While surely they can continue to refine N4, they may not be inclined to do
so if they have
to s***a module of the program due to legal actions. So rather than waste
funds building a possibly unreleaseable product...they "MAY" be hunkering
down and waiting for the lawyers to finish first.
You wanted a third possibility...there it is...
dave henrie

by **Tom Olive** » Thu, 29 Mar 2001 11:38:47

Well you have to do whatever you're most comfortable with, obviously, but
Papyrus hasn't communicated with anyone in the three and half years I've
been doing this. Lack of communication from them doesn't tell us a thing. I
know, it frustrates me as well, but I've gotten used to it.

Tom

> I am perfectly willing to take Papy at their word regarding a patch
but
> there has been no word. There are two possible reasons for this:

> 1. They are incapable of communication
> or
> 2. They are unwilling to communicate.

> If there is a third possibility, what it is? If there is only these
two
> then in my skeptical mind neither of these possibilities bode well. In the
> real world as it stands now I have a choice of either keeping a game I
> cannot accept in its present state or getting back the $45 I paid for it.
I
> choose the cash. And, as I said, your faith may be rewarded. In which case
I
> shall run down to the store and again purchase NASCAR 4 and it will give
me
> the greatest pleasure to take all the "I TOLD YOU SO!'s" you or anyone
else
> care to hand out.
> There are still a few days until the cutoff for returning the game for
a
> refund. I await some word from Papy. I will believe what they say. If Papy
> says nothing then nothing is what I will believe.

> > I used to think just like you Joe. Papyrus is different. Largely because
> > most of the guys who work on the product play it just as much or more
than
> > we do. I almost think they would make a patch with our without funding.
> They
> > want to play it.

> > Yes it's blind faith, but it's an educated blind faith.

> > Tom

by **ymenar** » Thu, 29 Mar 2001 12:32:16

Oh cmon, it's quite normal that Papyrus does not control any kind of public
information concerning post-release updates or patches. It all comes from
Sierra, it's normal THEY are the producers. It has always been like that,
back since Nascar Racing 2. Thus, Sierra choose to release any kind of
information. Please note that several people at Papyrus have greatly hinted
the upcoming patch. Anybody who is not senile knows that there will be a
patch. It's quite obvious, you think they basically released an early
1.0.0.1 patch and that's all? They have wrote everywhere things like "it's
a known issue", thus there will be a patch. C'mon wake up.

Do people forget that easily?

Don't act like a chicken with it's head chopped.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.ymenard.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **ymenar** » Thu, 29 Mar 2001 12:33:10

<snip>

Errr sorry to have quoted you Dave in that first post, I messed up my edit.
My apologies.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.ymenard.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **Joe L** » Thu, 29 Mar 2001 13:37:40

The question was: "Why do we have no word from Papy?". Your post does
not present a third possibility but merely a catalog of speculations that:
1. They are incapable of communicating
or
2. They are unwilling to communicate.

Note that we are all talking "mabe". "might be", "could be", etc, etc,
etc. Everything here is a guess or a surmise or an assumption or a hope
with no "Thus sayith Papy" for anyone to hang a hat on. This is PRECISELY my
point.
I do not demand a beta patch or some quick fix.or even a guess on how
long a patch would take. I only want some message from Papy stating: "We
have documented: Bug "A", Bug "B", Bug "C" and we are working on a patch to
correct same". Just this and I will be happy to crash and lock and reboot
for months while Papy works to get it right. I have patents and
understanding by the ton. I am one of those who bought Falcon 4 Version 1 at
full price on day one and kept it! The Falcon 4 team communicated, NASCAR 4
team does not, there is the difference for me.
Well, it's your $45 or, more accuratly, it's Papy's $45. I hope you are
right and you just might be but, as I said in the first post, the safest
thing to do at this point is to take the game back for a cash refund. From
there one of two things will happen:

1. Papy produces a patch and the game is fixed. In which case we can buy the
game again, apply the patch and race.
or
2. Papy does not produce a patch and the game is NOT fixed. In which case
the we have $45.

As I have said, I am willing to take Papy at thier word but they have not
given thier word. They have only given a buggy program and silence. Some
here seem to take this silence as a sign of support, they are welcome; I
consider it rude. Papy can be as rude as they like but then if they want me
to swallow thier rudness and hand them my money they are going to have to
come up with a pretty damn good program that works. NASCAR 4, in its
present condition, aint it.

by **Mike Donnelly J** » Thu, 29 Mar 2001 14:08:54

> Name one other title where the waypoints move.

> How do you find you way back to the base?

Falcon 3/4. You could alter the flight route by altering waypoints.

by **Joe L** » Thu, 29 Mar 2001 14:06:54

Perhaps you would list some of the "everywhere"'s these "Great Hints"
have been posted? If I could direct you to an "everywhere" you have
apparently not visited you may note in my original post that I refer NOT to
Papy alone but to Sierra/Papy. One and all, each and severally.... silent.
Your argument seems to be that they have always been rude and inconsiderate
to their customers. An odd justification for your faith.
Considering the fact that I that I did not mention the 1001 patch at
all how is it you consider it "quite obvious" that I think it the only
patch? If you wish to dispute me please confine your arguments to what I
have said and not any "quite obvious" straw-men you may dream up. But if you
insist on arguing against positions no one holds I would advise you against
mentioning senility in the midst of the argument.

> Oh cmon, it's quite normal that Papyrus does not control any kind of
public
> information concerning post-release updates or patches. It all comes from
> Sierra, it's normal THEY are the producers. It has always been like that,
> back since Nascar Racing 2. Thus, Sierra choose to release any kind of
> information. Please note that several people at Papyrus have greatly
hinted
> the upcoming patch. Anybody who is not senile knows that there will be a
> patch. It's quite obvious, you think they basically released an early
> 1.0.0.1 patch and that's all? They have wrote everywhere things like
"it's
> a known issue", thus there will be a patch. C'mon wake up.

> Do people forget that easily?

> Don't act like a chicken with it's head chopped.

> --
> -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> -- May the Downforce be with you...
> -- http://www.ymenard.com/
> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
> Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **ymenar** » Thu, 29 Mar 2001 16:03:49

> Perhaps you would list some of the "everywhere"'s these "Great Hints"
> have been posted?

Where most of the NASCAR community is, the simracing.org newsgroup

It's quite obvious there will be a bigger patch in the future. Anybody who
even thinks the opposite is senile.

Teeheehee nice failed attempt to rhetoric flaming. Big words 'brotha!

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.ymenard.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **ymenar** » Thu, 29 Mar 2001 16:09:55

> I do not demand a beta patch or some quick fix.or even a guess on how
> long a patch would take. I only want some message from Papy stating: "We
> have documented: Bug "A", Bug "B", Bug "C" and we are working on a patch
to
> correct same".

It's not important. They do not waste valuable time (especially since it
comes from Sierra, not Papyrus) on that. It's their philosophy. You either
like it or not. I don't see the necessity to whine about that fact. This
same discussion happened for N1, Icr2, N2, GPL and N3.

You have faith or not? It's all what counts.

You simply cannot put in your mind that they perhaps can't ? Anyway it all
goes back to the developer's philosophy like I previously said. Papyrus has
well known (for people like us who've been long simracing fans in the
community) to shut up and deliver the goods. Someday you will wake up and
see a big patch posted at papy.com that fixes a vast majority of the
problems. That's all you need to know, rest assured it will happen.

It will not happen. It never happened (spare me NR99, it wasn't selling
like hotcakes as N4 is).

That's quite stretching.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.ymenard.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **Joe L** » Fri, 30 Mar 2001 04:12:35

> > Perhaps you would list some of the "everywhere"'s these "Great
Hints"
> > have been posted?

> Where most of the NASCAR community is, the simracing.org newsgroup

Strange, I have been there as much as here. I recall no statement from
Papy or Sierra. You, of course, can provide message numbers or quotes?
Even stranger is that none of these "Great Hints" that are "everywhere"
on simracing.org appear "nowhere" on the Sierra/Papy message base itself.
Perhaps you could explain how it is that they have managed to find the time
to post these "Great Hints" everywhere EXCEPT thier own message base.

The only thing that is quite obvious is that is that you are trying to
make up for your inability to state a cohesive reasoned argument by
continually chanting "It's Quite Obvious" and labeling as senile any who
disagree with you. Your statement is proof of a massive conceit but little
else.

It is "quite obvious" you are unfamiliar with "Big Words" if all you
can muster are giggles and a blanket dismissal with no reference at all to
the subject. To start off your education may I suggest you look up
"rhetoric". If you find a dictionary with the term "verb" anywhere in the
definition please let me know. In the mean time, having "rhetoriced" for
the last few days I am done with my "rhetoricing" but if you want to
"rhetoric" some more then by all means the last is yours.
Enjoy "brotha".

by **ymenar** » Fri, 30 Mar 2001 07:11:45

<snip>

We had this same conversation for Nascar Racing 1, IndyCar Racing 2, Nascar
Racing 2, Grand Prix Legends and Nascar Racing 3. Just search dejanews,
it's stupid to even argument about the patch, it's 100% official there will
be one. What's the point of officially saying there will be a patch? It
would make your life so much more enjoyable if somebody from Papyrus told
you "yes, we are creating a patch presently"

Hello? McFly?

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.ymenard.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **Dave Henri** » Fri, 30 Mar 2001 07:41:37

. What's the point of officially saying there will be a patch? It

No, but then we could begin phase two of the official internet whiners
guide...
after complaining about a patch, we must be ready to move on and start
complaining
about the patch being late. The sooner Papyrus announces the patch, the
sooner we
can move on and begin our carping all over again.
dave henrie

rec.autos.simulators

N4: Will Papy and Sierra respect us in the morning?

N4: Will Papy and Sierra respect us in the morning?

N4: Will Papy and Sierra respect us in the morning?

N4: Will Papy and Sierra respect us in the morning?

N4: Will Papy and Sierra respect us in the morning?

N4: Will Papy and Sierra respect us in the morning?

N4: Will Papy and Sierra respect us in the morning?

N4: Will Papy and Sierra respect us in the morning?

N4: Will Papy and Sierra respect us in the morning?

N4: Will Papy and Sierra respect us in the morning?

N4: Will Papy and Sierra respect us in the morning?

N4: Will Papy and Sierra respect us in the morning?

N4: Will Papy and Sierra respect us in the morning?

N4: Will Papy and Sierra respect us in the morning?

N4: Will Papy and Sierra respect us in the morning?

N4: Will Papy and Sierra respect us in the morning?