rec.autos.simulators

Can anybody give me any suggestions, about
how to learn to slide the car around the corners?

I mean I understand the theory, but I can't make it
in practice and after two days of trying I don't
feel I go anywhere. I tried at Monza, and analyzing
tools shows that everybody is faster than me out of the
corners, because my car is much less straight and I
can't accelerate as early. If I try to make a good
exit I have to slow down too much in the corner.

Is there any methods to learn it step-by-step?

Thanks in advance,
Alex.

(alexti).

I assume you're using GPL Replay Analyzer.  You should be able to come
off the corner and accelerate with others by driving smoothly, even if
you're a little slower in the first half of the curve.  If not, you
need to work on your line and being smooth first.

Try a very long constant radius corner corner that lets you work the
car for a long time.  Your goal is to enter fast without going off
line and then have the tires howling slightly and consistently all the
way through.  The corners before the straight at Kylami and Mexico are
good.

Monza is relatively easy and not a good place to learn driving
techniques.  Rouen is good.  Silverstone is decent.  Zandvoort and
Mosport are the best, but the varying radii and hills make the lessons
less clear.  You learn more easily on a tough track where you're
farther behind and making big mistakes than when you're close to a
good time at Monza.  Then you go back to Monza and use what you've
learned.

In addition to the other good suggestions here I'd say that the car makes a
difference.  I've been driving the Lotus lately with G. Huttu's setups (and
my own) and couldn't get the car to safely slide at all.  When it did slide
it would snap back wickedly and then start a bit of a tank-slapper and
usually crash.

I switched to a Ferrari a few days ago (with GH's setups) and knocked 30 sec
off my Ring time.  One thing I noticed is that after one or two laps to get
used to the car I can now get the rear end out and then correct it without
too much drama.

Have you ever seen 500cc GP motorcycle racing?  They have this technique of
braking that makes the rear step out then they almost slide into the corner
and accelerate out.  That's how I'm doing it currently.  I'm sure it's not
the fastest way but I'm getting used to letting the car slide.

SB.
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Alex,

I assume the reason you want to slide it through the
corners is to go quickly?  Yes, to go really fast you
do tend to need to be sliding throughout much of
the corner entry phase. However, to go quickly
you need to be doing the other 95% of the stuff right
and by doing this right, consistently you will gradually
enter corners quicker and be sliding even without
noticing you are doing so.

Regular r.a.s. readers will know I created a small package
a few months ago which I called GPLEGS (short for
GPL examples). It has a number of text files and some
example replays of how to drive quickly in GPL, in fact
the techniques discussed are what would be taught at
a race driver school (I was an instructor with Jim Russell
school for many years).

If you'd like to receive the package, just send an email

Same goes for any new r.a.s. readers who are interested.

Maxx

Yes, I can do it, but then I have already lost time by going
slower at the entry.

They are both sort of banked, and the technique needed to exit
them properly is different (in particular you will likely to
oversteer at the exit in those corners instead of understeering
in regular ones)

I don't agree that Monza is easy, it may be easy to drive around,
but my inability to slide the car kills my times there. In contrary,
at Mosport one can make pretty fast lap without really sliding the car,
so it makes relatively small difference. Zandvoort is more
about the correct line. Maybe I should try Rouen and Silverstone.

Alex.
(alexti).

I'm a little confused and perplexed here. Could you give us some idea
of your times at Monza and Mosport. These are relevant, as it gives us
some idea of what amount of time you are losing/trying to gain by
"sliding".

Generally, sliding on the exit of a corner greater than 90deg or even
less is not fast. Tire squeal on entry is fine, but on exit, needs to
be at a minumum (just enough to let you know you are going fast
enough).

It's been said lots of times before, but the key to a fast lap at
Monza is quick exits from Lesmo2 and Parabolica.

At Lesmo2, you shouldn't relaly have any tire squal on exit IMO,
but you SHOULD be able to get onto 80%+ power by the apex.

Similarly the exit of parabolica, not tire-squeal here, is usually
best to short-shift (change up early) so you don't get any wheelspin)

Unless you are within a second of the WR, don't compare your
driving style to the WR style. You have to drive differently to get
a 1:26 than you do a 1:27, 1:28, 1:29 or a 1:30 (it's all a matter
of progression).

As for Mosport and Zandvoort, lots of sliding going on at both
tracks for me and I can't imagine a fast lap without it.

As you say though LINE is the key, but it's the key to EVERY
track.

Maxx

I was judging my relative speed using GPLRank. At Monza I am
in 7th hundred, at Silverstone - in 6th, while at Mosport and
Nurburgring - in 3rd hundred. Clearly something is wrong
with my driving.

Actually I am trying to slide at the entry by turning a bit earlier,
to make it slide a bit and then try to make it around the apex by
giving some throttle, so I can get straighter exit line and carry a
bit more speed at the apex.

The second phase of the exit seems to be pretty easy, but I have
problems right after I finished braking. If I do it precisely
(sort of trying to conserve tires ;>) I go a bit slow around the apex,
because it is still too early to accelerate. It feels right to
kick the back a bit before the apex to be able to get back on the
throttle earlier, though I can't make it just right

<snip>

Alex
(alexti)

Alex,

Thanks for the info .. more later

I wouldn't say so, or at least not based on the above. 2 things spring
to mind. The first and most relevant is that Monza is IMO the most
practiced and raced track there is. I have seen people well into
the 1:28s who are nowhere near Papy times at other tracks. Even
without "knowing" anything about technique, if you go round and
round enough times you will get fairly fast adn be able to pop one
of those lucky laps in. The second is slightly related to the first,
as it is the most raced track, many GPLRank times will be from races
and it is quite possible for lots of those times to be slipstream
assisted. I've never set a PB in a race there myself but I have got
a significant speed boost running behind someone, then passing
into Parabolica. It's not going to turn a 1:29 guy into a 1:28 but it
may move a 1:28.7 into a 1:28.4 etc.

Instead of looking at GPLRanking, check your time as a percentage
of the WR time, adn see how it compares to your others.

At 1:28.60 you are doing a lot right, I think another .50 could come
from just having the confidence when going into L2 to get on the
power just that little bit earlier.

I think it was your phrase "trying to slide" that got me to write in
the first place and i'm still not sure you are approaching it from
the correct viewpoint.

Sliding is never something to aim for, it's a consequence of going
fast and as such I find I am not aware of sliding except for the
audible feedback from the tires. I had an interesting race the
other day where my sound went completely. I managed 4-5
laps, about 1sec away from what I think I could do with sound
but ended up blowing the engine.

Anyway, I'd not concentrate on trying to slide, just on getting
through the corner as quick as possible under control so that
when you exit the corner you are fully balanced and can get on the
power that little bit earlier.

It is very difficult, I think most drivers know what to do here but
for some reason it often doesn't turn out right. It is difficult to
go from far left (as you should be), to the apex in such a way as the
car is then fairly well balanced to get the power on. Also, that
outside hedge is looming and "tends" to intimidate us from taking
any major risk.

I have your mail but my ISPs Mail System is up the creek at the
moment, will get back to you later.

Cheers

Maxx

Well, maybe half and half.  Zandvoort demands a lot of sliding around, but
you daren't put a wheel off.  Mosport seems to favor a more precise line
around its sinuous twists & turns, and, like Zandy, you want to be very neat
& tidy on the exits.  Like Maxx said.

--Steve Smith  ("No Aliens")

Try Colin McRae 2, it'll suit your technique perfectly ;-)

/Carl
(GPL Hcp 400 something...)

I looked at your laptimes compared to mine, and your rank of -13.13 is
not what I would call "bad". You're ranked no. 370 of all drivers which
is also good in my book. As for something being wrong with your driving
I would hazard the guess that you could use some more practice. That's
what "my" coach [1] always tells me. :-)

You have to decide whether you are going for Hotlaps or Racing. These
are related but different disciplines. Some outstanding drivers excel at
both but they are not all that common. If racing is to your liking, try
to stay away from the Monza Mayhems and do the Longer races. Usually a
much better crowd.

If you look at the three recent Grand Prix run by Eldred [2] you will
see that they were won by drivers at ranks 802, 694, and 344. Jan
Verschueren (GPLRank 13.12, no. 694) placed 2nd, 1st, and 2nd. Would you
call him a bad driver after doing so well in 2+ hour races?

Actually what you could do to improve your driving is getting a more
structured practice by setting different goals for the session. One
example could be to complete 20 laps without a single mishap. Tougher
than you might think especially if you had to have no more than 2 laps
worse that PB+2 secs. Just an idea.

Cheers,
Jens

[1] He's very good but quite expensive. So far I've paid him compliments
and respect, but I'm running a bit low on kind words to accurately
describe the way he has improved my driving. :-)
[2] You are actually not allowed to describe a Rank below zero as
anything but outstanding, undeserved, and lucky. Transgression could be
punished by "The Sigh of St. Eldred". ;-) (Don't even think about going
negative in less than a year!)

I plan to start to do racing when I learned tracks a bit better and
after I got some practice with AI (they don't mind being taken off
the race by some rookie ;>)
I don't really go for hotlapping either, I am just trying to
improve my performance on different tracks. Accidentally, most of
my PB laps happened when I was practicing certain corners and not
when I went for the hotlap.

I admire those guys who can stay in the race for 2 hours. I am not
likely to survive that long. I would like to join those races, but
I want to make sure first that I can drive in the traffic without
wrecking havoc.

Good idea, I do my practice by learning certain corners: first
trying to find a right way around and then making sure I can do it
consistently.

You should have warned me earlier ;>

Alex
(alexti)

This one is not very reliable, because at Monza the fast driver
has much less opportunities to make a difference than at Nurburgring.

You are 0.01 off the mark ;>. I have downloaded and studied your GPLEGS
a bit, read your posts and carefully examined my line through Lesmo 2.
After I have made some revisions I started to lap faster in general,
made several laps in 1:28.40-1:28.60 range and produced a lucky lap of
1:28.09 - 0.51 improvement. Now back to practice -- I need to learn to do
consistently what I did on good laps :> Thank you for your help.

Interesting that the change I've made in my line is hardly noticable
in the Replay Analyzer.

<snip>

Alex
(alexti)

Thanks Maxx, that one paragraph cut my Kyalami PB by a second (still over
the Papy time though). In trying to go faster out of corners I was
accelerating too soon, I followed your tip and tried waiting what seemed
like an age before squeezing the throttle and there it was, a new PB.

I'll just have to make the time to go through GPLEGS now.

--
Tony Whitley
GPLRank +10.90 (from 12.8, I slithered around Zandvoort a bit quicker too)