rec.autos.simulators

Counter Steering in GPL

Ric

Counter Steering in GPL

by Ric » Sun, 20 Dec 1998 04:00:00

It seems very weird that when the car starts to slide, and I counter
steer as I do in a real car, the car in GPL always spins out..

I fought the resistance to counter steer and actually steered into the
slide and the car straightened itself out...

This is counter correct...

Anyone else notice this?

Trip

Counter Steering in GPL

by Trip » Sun, 20 Dec 1998 04:00:00


> It seems very weird that when the car starts to slide, and I counter
> steer as I do in a real car, the car in GPL always spins out..

> I fought the resistance to counter steer and actually steered into the
> slide and the car straightened itself out...

> This is counter correct...

> Anyone else notice this?

Yes. Here's what's happening (at least here's how it looks here)...

You start to lose the rear in a slide. The slip angles of all four
wheels are increasing, you're losing traction at all four corners.

If you countersteer, you'd better move that wheel QUICK, because what
happens as soon as you atart to steer into the skid is a reduction in
slip angle at the front wheels, and more steering force. THe increased
steering force hastens the spin unless you steer further into the skid
(and quickly) to reduce the slip angle at the front wheels to zero.

On the other hand, if at the beginning of a slide you steer the "wrong"
way, you immediately increase the slip angles at the front wheels faster
than the rears are increasing, and the spin never fully develops.

Trips

PhilippeSerge..

Counter Steering in GPL

by PhilippeSerge.. » Mon, 21 Dec 1998 04:00:00


> It seems very weird that when the car starts to slide, and I counter
> steer as I do in a real car, the car in GPL always spins out..

> I fought the resistance to counter steer and actually steered into the
> slide and the car straightened itself out...

> This is counter correct...

> Anyone else notice this?

Depends on what you do with the gas when the car starts to oversteer; if
you lift off the gas completly, there's a good chance your car will spin
out even if the wheels are counter-steered. But I find it's still the
best way to control the car. But to a certain point... if the back has
gone to far, the only thing left to do is pray that you won't hit
anything too hard.

Philster

DAVID J ROBINSO

Counter Steering in GPL

by DAVID J ROBINSO » Mon, 21 Dec 1998 04:00:00

You are correct, but a touch of throttle will help keep the car from
spinning, but i can also make you carreen off the road.  Expirence tells me
I would rather back a Formula car into anything then hit it head on tho.

Dave

NanaKo

Counter Steering in GPL

by NanaKo » Mon, 21 Dec 1998 04:00:00

     When you "counter-steer" or opposite lock, you must also apply the
throttle to make the technique work. (Note: Full throttle will more than likely
cause a spin)

Marc Collin

Counter Steering in GPL

by Marc Collin » Mon, 21 Dec 1998 04:00:00

It is counter correct only if you forget you are driving a rear-engined
vehicle.

Marc.


Ric

Counter Steering in GPL

by Ric » Mon, 21 Dec 1998 04:00:00

I Don't  believe so, My real cars are both  rear engined (911S) and a front
engined (2002 ti) and both react to the rear stepping out the in same
manner. Counter steer the slide and apply throttle.. The 911 has a
distinctive need for more throttle than the 2002, but the results are the
same.

If I steer into the slide in GPL, the car will straighten itself out and be
pointed straight on the track. Whereas If I counter steer the car in a
slide with power on, the car will always spin out and be pointed in the
opposite direction....

Counter intuitive...


> It is counter correct only if you forget you are driving a rear-engined
> vehicle.

> Marc.



> >It seems very weird that when the car starts to slide, and I counter
> >steer as I do in a real car, the car in GPL always spins out..

> >I fought the resistance to counter steer and actually steered into the
> >slide and the car straightened itself out...

> >This is counter correct...

> >Anyone else notice this?

Michae

Counter Steering in GPL

by Michae » Tue, 22 Dec 1998 04:00:00

I'm confused by your terminology here, Ric.

When you say "counter-steer" do you mean steering left even though the car
is going round a right hand corner? A lot of people use "steer into the
slide" to mean the same thing! You seem to use them to mean opposite things.

- Michael

Marc Collin

Counter Steering in GPL

by Marc Collin » Tue, 22 Dec 1998 04:00:00

It is basic driving 101 that you always steer in the direction you want the
car to go...with a rear-engined vehicle, you may need to apply throttle as
well to prevent the rear-end from coming around.  But you are steering into
the spin--that is, if you are turning right and start to lose the car (the
rear-end is swinging around), you may have to turn left to keep the front
wheels pointed in the direction you want the car to travel.  Throttle
steering at this point in GPL will be essential, as it would be in a 911 if
you were anywhere near the limits of adhesion.  In your 2002, however, like
any other good rear-wheel drive front-engined car, you could, possibly,
de-clutch and let the car rebalance and the front wheels steer you around
the corner until you were straight enough to apply more power.  De-clutching
in a rear-engined car (especially the beasts in GPL) near the limit will
more often than not induce a spin-out.

I can't really figure-out from your comments whether you disagree with any
of this...??  So I tried to make my point more clearly and with more detail.
I believe GPL reacts very naturally and as one would expect regarding
steering input during near-limit corerning.

Marc.


>I Don't  believe so, My real cars are both  rear engined (911S) and a front
>engined (2002 ti) and both react to the rear stepping out the in same
>manner. Counter steer the slide and apply throttle.. The 911 has a
>distinctive need for more throttle than the 2002, but the results are the
>same.

>If I steer into the slide in GPL, the car will straighten itself out and be
>pointed straight on the track. Whereas If I counter steer the car in a
>slide with power on, the car will always spin out and be pointed in the
>opposite direction....

>Counter intuitive...


>> It is counter correct only if you forget you are driving a rear-engined
>> vehicle.

>> Marc.



>> >It seems very weird that when the car starts to slide, and I counter
>> >steer as I do in a real car, the car in GPL always spins out..

>> >I fought the resistance to counter steer and actually steered into the
>> >slide and the car straightened itself out...

>> >This is counter correct...

>> >Anyone else notice this?

DAVID J ROBINSO

Counter Steering in GPL

by DAVID J ROBINSO » Tue, 22 Dec 1998 04:00:00

 In your 2002, however, like

Putting the clutch in on any car that is at the limit of adhesion will
unload the chassis and induce a spin,  esp in a rear engined car like the
911, infact I don't think you would get your foot on the clutch before the
911 would turn around on you. The olders ones are very vindictive when you
drive them incorrectly.  Infast lifting off the gas at the limit in a 911
will induce a spin.

A front engined car will react a bit slower then a car with its motor
outside the wheels.  It will tho spin just the same.  Infact the desing of
older BMWs will induce oversteer at the limit and lifting just makes it
worse,  declutching would not balance the car either.  It would unload the
chassis a bit in probly induce the spin faster, at least it does in my Solo
ll car.  

A typical mid-engined car will exhibit a power on understeer, power off
oversteer and be neutral at neutral throttle.  Drive a 914-4 and this will
prove this out.  With GPL you have an abunance of HP to work with so you
can induce oversteer anytime you want, but you should notice that off
throttle it tends to oversteer and on throttle understeer to a point of
where the power overcomes the tires.

One last thing if you decide to try the declutching on a 66 to 90 911 and
are rich please put me in your will.

Dave

rob

Counter Steering in GPL

by rob » Tue, 22 Dec 1998 04:00:00

I'm with you, I think it's wierd.  If you start to spin right, turn
right and let off the throttle and you'll stop spinning.  I've
always wondered if anybody else thought it was wierd.

rob.


>I Don't  believe so, My real cars are both  rear engined (911S) and a front
>engined (2002 ti) and both react to the rear stepping out the in same
>manner. Counter steer the slide and apply throttle.. The 911 has a
>distinctive need for more throttle than the 2002, but the results are the
>same.

>If I steer into the slide in GPL, the car will straighten itself out and be
>pointed straight on the track. Whereas If I counter steer the car in a
>slide with power on, the car will always spin out and be pointed in the
>opposite direction....

>Counter intuitive...


>> It is counter correct only if you forget you are driving a rear-engined
>> vehicle.

>> Marc.



>> >It seems very weird that when the car starts to slide, and I counter
>> >steer as I do in a real car, the car in GPL always spins out..

>> >I fought the resistance to counter steer and actually steered into the
>> >slide and the car straightened itself out...

>> >This is counter correct...

>> >Anyone else notice this?

Ric

Counter Steering in GPL

by Ric » Tue, 22 Dec 1998 04:00:00

No, I mean exactly that.. When the car starts to slide, I counter steer into the
slide, and the car spins around every time, and stops, pointing the wrong
direction, no matter how soon I start to catch it, no matter how minor the
slide.

However, if I do the complete real life wrong thing, over steer a slide, the car
either straightens itself out on the side of the course or even less, spins
around and points the correct direction..

Maybe its the steering wheel that I have? Nascar Sprint????


> I'm confused by your terminology here, Ric.

> When you say "counter-steer" do you mean steering left even though the car
> is going round a right hand corner? A lot of people use "steer into the
> slide" to mean the same thing! You seem to use them to mean opposite things.

> - Michael

Ric

Counter Steering in GPL

by Ric » Tue, 22 Dec 1998 04:00:00

With my  69 911S, You have to keep the power on, to make the car drive itself
through the turns.. If one is coming in hot and finds himself in a over
steering situation, and the car is in a high gear, I 99% of the time, down
shift and give it full throttle and drive the rear of the car through the turn,
and not spin out.. Lugging it in a high gear will enable the rear to come
around to a point that is very eye opening at the guard rail.. Likewise, the
911 has a heavy push at low speeds.. It simple will go straight!  One has to
transfer the weight to the front, either trail braking or turning while still
slowing down to help the slower corners.

If I was a novice and either backed out of it or hit the brakes, it would all
be over...

Now on the 69 2002, the car handles much much more neutral. It tends to enter
the turns  with over steer then changes to neutral and on the exits either 4
wheel drifts or has a small push.. Pretty much predictable... It was a real
change driving the 02 after the 911.  One of nuisances of the 02 was the
lifting of the rear suspension, always on the inside of the turn side.. Driving
on the Streets of S.F. the car would lift the pass side rear tire on a right

trunk helped greatly, but the car needs a larger sway bar to settle the problem
even further.


>  In your 2002, however, like
> > any other good rear-wheel drive front-engined car, you could, possibly,
> > de-clutch and let the car rebalance and the front wheels steer you around
> > the corner until you were straight enough to apply more power.
> De-clutching
> > in a rear-engined car (especially the beasts in GPL) near the limit will
> > more often than not induce a spin-out.

> > I can't really figure-out from your comments whether you disagree with
> any
> > of this...??  So I tried to make my point more clearly and with more
> detail.
> > I believe GPL reacts very naturally and as one would expect regarding
> > steering input during near-limit corerning.

> > Marc.

> Putting the clutch in on any car that is at the limit of adhesion will
> unload the chassis and induce a spin,  esp in a rear engined car like the
> 911, infact I don't think you would get your foot on the clutch before the
> 911 would turn around on you. The olders ones are very vindictive when you
> drive them incorrectly.  Infast lifting off the gas at the limit in a 911
> will induce a spin.

> A front engined car will react a bit slower then a car with its motor
> outside the wheels.  It will tho spin just the same.  Infact the desing of
> older BMWs will induce oversteer at the limit and lifting just makes it
> worse,  declutching would not balance the car either.  It would unload the
> chassis a bit in probly induce the spin faster, at least it does in my Solo
> ll car.

> A typical mid-engined car will exhibit a power on understeer, power off
> oversteer and be neutral at neutral throttle.  Drive a 914-4 and this will
> prove this out.  With GPL you have an abunance of HP to work with so you
> can induce oversteer anytime you want, but you should notice that off
> throttle it tends to oversteer and on throttle understeer to a point of
> where the power overcomes the tires.

> One last thing if you decide to try the declutching on a 66 to 90 911 and
> are rich please put me in your will.

> Dave

Ric

Counter Steering in GPL

by Ric » Tue, 22 Dec 1998 04:00:00

Exacty!

Its either we both have the same steering wheel combo (Nascar Sprint) or the
writers missed real life!


> I'm with you, I think it's wierd.  If you start to spin right, turn
> right and let off the throttle and you'll stop spinning.  I've
> always wondered if anybody else thought it was wierd.

> rob.


> >I Don't  believe so, My real cars are both  rear engined (911S) and a front
> >engined (2002 ti) and both react to the rear stepping out the in same
> >manner. Counter steer the slide and apply throttle.. The 911 has a
> >distinctive need for more throttle than the 2002, but the results are the
> >same.

> >If I steer into the slide in GPL, the car will straighten itself out and be
> >pointed straight on the track. Whereas If I counter steer the car in a
> >slide with power on, the car will always spin out and be pointed in the
> >opposite direction....

> >Counter intuitive...


> >> It is counter correct only if you forget you are driving a rear-engined
> >> vehicle.

> >> Marc.



> >> >It seems very weird that when the car starts to slide, and I counter
> >> >steer as I do in a real car, the car in GPL always spins out..

> >> >I fought the resistance to counter steer and actually steered into the
> >> >slide and the car straightened itself out...

> >> >This is counter correct...

> >> >Anyone else notice this?

DAVID J ROBINSO

Counter Steering in GPL

by DAVID J ROBINSO » Wed, 23 Dec 1998 04:00:00

Exactly Rick,  I have seen to many new guys driving 911s at PCA events lift
off throttle in oversteer situations at Heartland Park and buy a wall with
their 911s.

Dave




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