rec.autos.simulators

Rally based games would be a start.

In racing situations, induced understeer is also used. Turning the front
tires inwards past the slip angle of maximum grip to wash out the front
end if the car loses grip. It's used in two situations: 1. while slowing
/ braking for a corner, 2. very high speed turns where there is a lot
of throttle being used to maintain speed. For case #2, most racers will
add rear wing to cars if they plan to race on high speed ovals.

Counter-steering is mostly used when accelerating out of a corner, when
/ if the rear end steps out. Note that counter-steering and braking
don't mix, this will just spin the car more. Induced understeer and
braking will work, if the braking bias is forwards enough that the
fronts lock up before the rears when pegged inwards.

Icy conditions are another mater. Assuming you're not racing, you're
just trying to control a car. Again, there's the problem that you
can't brake and counter-steer if the rear end is already sliding
sideways. ABS just makes this worse by keeping the front tires from
loosing grip. You have to correct the cars orientation before
using the brakes.

Sometimes there's not much you can do. On a work related trip to
Newark, I remember one of the workers there mentioning going
through an underpass, stopping at a stop sign and then sliding
backwards back to the bottom of the underpass. Fortunately, no
one behind him. He backed up a bit, then used momentum to get
past the stop sign.

Drew

However, there are three potential problems that I can anticipate:

Firstly, you say "in realistic conditions". If that includes visual snow
and ice then for the most part GPL is no good. (Although some of the
available add-on tracks have snow and ice in varying degrees).

Secondly, the GPL cars are all rear-wheel drive. You don't say what
real-world cars you're interested in, but a lot of modern cars are
front-wheel drive, and if you want to transfer your experience to a
modern FWD car then GPL wouldn't be suitable.

Thirdly, almost all of the default car set-ups that come with GPL give
large amounts of understeer (push). If you manage to drive in a way that
gets the rear end starting to hang out, then the situation is probably
unstoppable and counter-steering won't help. You would need to spend a
little bit of time adjusting the car set-ups to give more balanced
behaviour so that counter-steering would work.

Funnily enough, I'm having a problem along similar lines at the moment.
I'm trying to improve my BRM set-up at Spa, but the rear end keeps
coming round when I enter the downhill right-hander at Malmedy. I can
save the skid with counter-steering (aka opposite lock) but it costs me
time. Ah well, back to the drawing board!

I think the most realistic icy condition simulation is in Richard Burns
Rally, but you need to keep in mind that WRC cars run special tyres, very
narrow and with long studs which actually gives very good grip when
cornering. Gravel stages in the rain are probably closer to the road car on
the ice simulation. GPL is also a good sim for practice. Though you can't
have ice there; it's always dry asphalt. Still those cars are much closer
to the road cars than modern F1 cars and GPL gives a good idea how the car
behaves.

I don't know much about 2006 Pontiac GTO, but assuming it's a stock car, it
will probably have a lot of built-in understeer, so in any case it will not
handle like WRC cars in RBR. What kind of tyres you run will also have a
large effect on driving. If you use good winter tyres with studs - that's
one driving, if you use summer or all-season tyres - completely different.
In first case you'll probably be setting up the car sideways for the corner
by using handbrake or simultaneous brake and throttle application while
steering the front around the corner (this will include counter-steering).
On summer tyres your main goal will probably be to avoid a slip, so the
driving will be more like driving in a very heavy rain.

So it's kind of hard to give a single answer to your question. However, if
you're looking at improving your car control in general, RBR and GPL are
definitely two very good choices.

Alex.

Don McCorkle

I don't even know if it runs under XP.

-Larry

The tracks are too weird and hectic for him to appreciate the handling.

Just for the heck of driving, I'd say the original Driver, and for a bit
more
realism, NFS: Porsche Unleashed.

The original Driver, with auto-handbrake turned on, makes every car
oversteer, and you have to countersteer to get it to turn properly. Just
do the "free ride" mode and practice all you want. Then try some of the
practice games before jumping into the missions. I know all the streets
are squares, but it's sorta enjoyable.

NFS:Porsche Unleashed have a variety of cars, and almost all of the RWD
cars will oversteer, but especially the 70's vintage 911's. The '73
911 Carrera 2.7 RS and the '75/'78 911 Turbo are the best examples...
EXTREMELY hard to drive, but extremely fast when you do it right. Try
driving it on one of the SNOW levels. Mua-ha-ha-ha-ha!

Actually induced understeer (steering the wheel inwards) does work in
real life depending on what else you're doing. As I previously posted,
you can't brake and counter-steer at the same time without makeing the
spin worse.

I've posted this question to several current club racers and semi-pro
racers and all state that they used induced understeer in some circumstances.
Mostly while slowing or braking during corner entry, and also for very
high speed turns where there is a lot of throttle input to keep the
car stable.

If the fronts are kept at or just past the maximum optimal slip angle, then
if the car starts to spin, the fronts increase slip angle beyond the optimal
angle, which reduces front end grip and the result is that the car drifts.
In real life you have to develop a feel for a car and it's setup in order to
know just how much to turn in the front tires to change the handling so the
car has an understeer or drift reaction.

Even in icy situations, counter steering and braking would be bad news,
especially with ABS.

-Larry

I expected the drivers arms to have grey furn on them.

-Larry

Actaully NFS2SE in simulation mode wasn't bad for a game back in 1998.

Porsche Unleashed just has too much grip, the 1995 911 turbo pulls
about 3g's in turns regardless of speed, since downforce doesn't
affect grip, it only keeps the car on the road over crests.