rec.autos.simulators

Would it be possible for a simple explaination as to why it a
problem having straight pit roads in Nascar2.

Also along similar lines as to why there a concrete walls
where they shouldn't be. e.g. Watkins Glen chicane, turns 7
and 11 at Sears Point etc.

--

Nigel of Lakewood Motorsports
Nascar Coruba & Coke Chevy
Hamilton
New Zealand

This is a limitation in our current track tools (which are abysmal in
general) and in our current AI. The limitation amounts to "the pit
road has to fall on the same arc as the racing surface" It's being
looked at very seriously right now for future products.

To prevent cheating primarily. Otherwise, you'd have people crashing
through T7 at the Glen, completely avoiding the Inner Loop. Of course
we could write code to penalize someone for doing it, but that code
isn't trivial to write, nor does it really capture all of the human
judgement that really goes into it. (Putting a wall there
appropriately "penalizes" anyone who tries to avoid the Inner Loop...
:-) )

A secondary consideration is the limitations of the current game
engine. (Too complicated to explain even in a long post, but basically
there was no way to accomplish 100% accurate modelling of the Glen
without sacrificing something in the game. The incorrect walls was the
"best" of the solutoins available to us.)

---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus

To prevent cheating doesn't cover it.  If cheating were a concern you
would have coded that penalty.  This is a simulation, and thusly, it
should simulate the actual track.  At the Glen, if you want to blow
through the Inner Loop, you do it and take a possible penalty depending
on whether you make up positions.  In Nascar 1 and 2, you end up out of
the race if you misjudge the braking into the Loop.  Realistic?  No.

James.

This is not "marketing" by any means. Marketing doesn't get a rat's
red behind what our track tools are like. (It's not like they could
put on the box "developed with all new track tools" and sell so much
as single extra unit [except to the guy who misreads this and assumes
the track tools are INCLUDED in the box... :-) ])

So what do we do if you don't "make up positions", but merely make up
time (beacuse you weren't racing near anyone and/or you are the race
leader)? By your explanation, no penalty.. What would NASCAR do in
that case? Penalize you. Why? Because they are human and can judge
perfectly well that you "intended" to cheat, as opposed to some
dispassionate AI "official" who can only do precisely what we program
it to do...

We opted for the dispassionate wall instead of a new complicated (and
knowingly insufficient) AI official solution...

---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus
PS: Sorry, you'll see this twice James; it appeared first in my
e-mail, and then 10 minutes or so later in netnews...

Sorry, that should be "give a rat's red behind"

---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus

After Jim described the track tools as 'abysmal', it said to me loud
and clear the we have much further to go then we've come so far.  And
after pondering NASCAR 2 in it's current state, I CAN'T WAIT to see
what results at the end of the line.

Kyle Langston
____________________________________________
IBM #72 Ford Thunderbird - Hurricane Racing
http://www.traction.git.net/hurricane/
NASS Series 1997 Winsten Cup Division

Nascar 2 and Indycar 2 were both a lot less revolutionary when they were
released.  Indycar 2 took advantage of new SVGA graphics as it's main
seller.  Nascar 2 has only a new interface and a spotter to add to it's
game play.  My main reason for being critical of Nascar 2 is just that -
I don't feel that enough was added to the game to justify the next
version.  Some of the issues raised in the original posts are
important.  A straight pit road at Talledega matters to me.  Also, that
wall in the Inner Loop should not be there.  Cheaters...who cares?  Most
players of Nascar and Indycar would drive that section correctly whether
the wall was there or not.  Personally, when I want to cheat at the
Glen, I turn damage off and fly into the Loop at 170mph and attempt to
pass the whole field.

To me, if you are going to introduce a new version of a game with some
known flaws, you had better try to reduce or eliminate those flaws or
you will hear about it.  The pit lane issues had been discussed here
quite extensively as was the whole AI thing.  I guess I would have hoped
that the two of the biggest issues with regards to the original game
would have been addressed.  Jim replied that this was the best that
could be done with current tools...I hope they work these issues out
fully before they try to release a version 3 of either simulation.

James.

I agree...

Of course they were; we went from nothing to something that was maybe
70% realistic. In order to be more revolutionary, we'd have had to go
to 141% realistic with the next version... :-)

I don't think it's necessary to be revolutionary, but rather
evolutionary in the pursuit of a fun, entertaining, compelling and
realistic NASCAR experience.

Just a historical note, N1 saw the debut of SVGA graphics in a Papyrus
sim. (If you bought the floppy version, that was VGA-only, but that's
another story...)

---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus

There's more under the hood of N2 than just a new interface and spotter
(which by itself is a huge feature).  The camber of the roadway at Sears
Point and the Glen is much improved.  You'll find both of these tracks
much more "driveable" than they were in N1.  The car physics have been
tweaked, so handling feels better.  It now feels like you're driving a
3,500 pound stock car at every track.  Trackside objects are more dense;
the tracks themselves look darn good.  For instance, Dover now sports
concrete, a pedestrian bridge and infield towers.  Talladega has an
improved tri-oval, so you can race through on any line.  Campers that
align the infield at each track bear different banners of favorite
drivers; ambulances sit at the ready.  More parts of each car are
paintable, and the paint kit is accessible from directly within the
game.  You can preview in 3D a finished version of your artwork from
within the paintshop, and there are new painting tools such as smudge
and polygons. You can race "events" now, rather than tracks- so if you
want to run the night race at C***te in a single event, you can do so
(as opposed to having only night racing in championship season mode in
N1).  There is a tow truck (albiet an invisible one) and network play
built in.  

Just thought you might find this info useful.

God Bless,
Steve

Thanks for your reply re walls where they shouldn,t be in
Nascar 2.

How about though, would it be simple to make them invisible
with orange markers on them to simulate the markers they use
in real life.
At least then the track would be more to the real track and
also it would still discourage cheaters.

--

Nigel of Lakewood Motorsports
Nascar Coruba & Coke Chevy
Hamilton
New Zealand

Ahhh... an opening :-)

This brings up the next part of the subject, being "evolutionary".
Keep in mind, if they keep to their established schedule, nascar 3 ,
if there is one, will be released some time in late 1998.  Think about
what the standard computer will be then. Certain things like the AI
are damn good now, they can be improved a little, but not radically.
It might be easier for the programming grunts to convince "management"
they need to seriously improve the track tools to help justify the
newest version. Seems like the most obvious improvement to realism
they can take next. But, then again, i didn't see spotter audio
coming.

The biggest improvement games are likely to go through in the next
year or so is the use of higher color depths ( 64k or even 16 million
colors ). There are a few in development right now. That is at least
as significant an improvement in the graphics as SVGA was. Things
start to look photo-realistic and a lot less like cartoons. I tried
running nascar 1 in regular old vga the other day... ugh!

The Rendition version already uses 16-bit color (as do all games using
bi-linear filtering).

--

The IWCCCARS Project: Q & A Representative
http://www.theuspits.com/iwcccars/index.html-ssi
http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/

James.

There's way more than that. Pretty much every surface has a slightly
different grip value. (Even the painted lines differ slightly from the
concrete or asphalt next to them...) This gave me no end of amu***t
when I discovered this little tidbit (a few weeks after starting at
Papyrus) It was then that I realized just how serious this was... :-)

The only problem is that reducing the grip doesn't really fix it, as
you don't need much grip at all to shoot straight through the
"shortcut."

---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus

Jim, is this your job? Is this all you do during your day? Just post
responses to everyone's questions? If it is my resume' is on the way:)