rec.autos.simulators

Man my isp doesn't keep messages long enough.  But anyway...
What are the reactions to SODA off road?  kind tricky demo, but I love it.
I assume the game will work better in retail package, as the graphics have
to be turned nearly off in 640X480.  Would I be assuming wrong in this?
        I can run N2 with everything on even though I have a lowly Millenium 2mb
card (first version).  or am I gonna have to have pentiom2 600mhz and some
unbelievable graphics card?
Any thoughts?

--
-------Thanks
          Stinger

i have a p200 with a rendition/voodoo combo and i can run soda full boat.
all of it on and it looks nice. the model feals good too.cant wait to get
behind the wheel of that 4x4. this is what all those offroad sims where
trying to do. papy steps up and belts it out of the park again. and with
those new graphics card due out next month a nice 3d card could be had
cheap. so hold on a few and you will be able to get a deal just in time for
the full release.

maxwell

it.

You do? I think it sucks BIG time. No sense of feedback or whatsoever from
the car.
What were they thinking off when making this game? That Offroad Racing is
something like Ice-Racing?

Well, normally at Papyrus the demo version was quicker than the actual sim
so I fear the worst...And I really hope that this a very early beta,
because these graphics..... well, It is turning back the clock. Everything
looks so choppy and square. Try first ICR2-3D and play then the SODA demo
and you can't believe
this is the same company a few years later.

Just don't buy it... there are a lot of sims coming out the next months and
I am pretty sure there will be better ones.

As I was writing about the car-handling I had to think about a posting in
this group
about Grand Prix Legends. it stated that he was sliding all over the place
when playing a betaversion, and that from 100 laps at Zandvoort he managed
to do 2 without spinning. Now, were these old GP cars really that
undrivable.....? I cannot believe that drivers in that era were that good!
I've been to numerous classic racing events and cars from that era were
driven at high speeds by mediocre but rich gentlemen drivers, so......again
I really hope that these were very, very, early, early
demo and betaversions of these games and that Papyrus get their act
together.

Cheers,

Harald (a dedicated Papyrus customer 'till now....)

The graphics engine has to handle a completely different environment
than that of a road/street/oval circuit.  Two of the biggies are the
ability to drive anywhere and actually leave terra firma.  You can't do
that in ICR2-3D.
Also, if you notice, there's no pop-up.  All of the track is visible -
you can watch opponents on the other side of the course.  The only other
game I can think to compare this to is MTM - which only draws in about
20 yards ahead (maybe a slight exageration!) and still has framerate
problems -with- hardware accelleration.
The graphics do their job and don't look too bad with Rredline.
If you want flash graphics and great framerates try the NFS2SE demo with
3Dfx.  It's a stunning graphical showcase, but you're nailed to the
course, and the handling?  Forget it.

Don't buy it because the graphics aren't pretty?  Try to get underneath
that and into the game itself.  It might look 2-3 years old, but the
playability is bang up to date.

Who was 'he'?  There are people out there who find ICR2 undriveable but
love GP2.  I find that bizarre, but each to his own.  If GPL follows the
Papyrus trail i.e. onwards and upwards (IMO), and I'm sure it will,
it'll be sim of the year.

That's a shame.  I'm more impressed with each release :-)

Mark
Reading, UK

Using Rendition mode I run all graphics on with a P120 , Scriemin 3D card.
The driveing is tuff to handle but after practice I can run up front in
most of my races. Just remember that you are on MUD & DIRT.

Yep, I've the Screamin 3D card as well a P100 and I have to shut down
almost  all graphics options. But even with all graphics on and just
imagine it going 30 FPS I don't like the graphics, but hey, we can't be all
satisfied......

(Yeah, I installed the redline driver, but I think it has something to do
with my Motherboard, I have to start icr2 with Indysafe)

Cheers,

Harald

It was in a message John Wallace found on Compuserve and posted here.

I hope so, I hope so, I hope so........

We'll wait and judge the final version ;-)

Cheers,

Harald

Raw fear and the expenses of screwing up temper real life racing a good
bit.

What happens when you wreck a Papyrus car? You hit Shift-R and are back
at it. What happens when you wreck a RL car? Quite a bit more. I think
that affects how far you are willing to hang it out...

Use less throttle and you'll enjoy SODA and GPL more...

---Jim "Lots of Loud Pedal" Sokoloff

The problem is that what people do in a car on the screen they would
never even consider to do in real-life. Does anyone really think that
an F1 car is as easy to drive as GP2 and they could go out and turn
1:20s at Monza? I know some of the guys on the newsgroups really are
talented drivers but in reality these hotlaps come quite simply from
knowing you can't get hurt. It may take 99 crashes to get that one
perfect hotlap, and in a real F1 car your first crash would ensure you
would drive with a LOT more respect next time.

With SODA the cotton wool seems to have been taken away, and SODA
really is getting more difficult, closer to the difficulty of actual
driving. SODA has 150hp in a very light rear-drive chassis. Let's say
that power/weight is probably equivalent to 250hp+ in a road car -
call it a BMW 328i (rwd sports). Now you remove those fat tyres from
the Beemer and put some nice skinny ones on. Take the car out onto a
dirt/mud track and I ask you to drive it at 70-100mph - how careful do
you think you would need to be? I've raced one of these cars (328i) on
a wet tarmac circuit with FAT tyres on and I guarantee that it really
brings home the talent of an Alesi or a Senna to run slicks in the
same conditions with 700hp under their boot. SODA must be comparable,
given the lower grip.

As with most things auto-sim, practice will usually serve to cure your
ills. In this case however we are getting closer to the point where
not being able to "feel" the car underneath you becomes a serious
handicap, since when driving on the limit you are responding
instinctively to what your rear is telling you without even thinking
about it or waiting for visual cues or confirmations. So far
Thrustmaster, Trevor Thomas and ECCI haven't come up with
"force-feedback pants" (and I suspect we'd see them first in sex shops
anyway) and so taking the physics closer and closer to reality (taking
off the training wheels) currently makes the driving more difficult
(since we're denied the information we normally rely upon).

This isn't the same company - Papy are Papy, SODA is done by Software
Allies.

I'm not sure that too many spring to my mind. Test Drive 4? NFS2 SE?
Psygnosis F1'97? As far as I can see the list of games to buy is
limited to Grand Prix Legends, Ubisoft's "F1 Racing Simulation" and
possibly Microsoft CART (although the jury's still out on that one).
Either of the Codemasters or Europress Touring Car games might be
good, but not exactly a glut of _sims_ (although plenty of arcade
racers).

See above - these cars were driven sideways quite a lot of the time,
and at that time it is critical to feel the car (no, not grope the
seat cushions). We are used to correcting snap oversteer in today's
Indy and F1 sims because these days cars are not drifted. The F1 cars
depicted in GPL are drifted, and while snap oversteer can be caught by
swift manipulation of the controls, drifting requires that you measure
_how_much_ the the rear is moving out, and modulate throttle and
steering to keep it at the angle and direction required. This is done
by feel, and the reason there are so many spins at first is because
you need to relearn how to do this drifting without the benefit of the
seat of your pants. Here we are full circle at the practice, practice,
practice metaphor.

The point of a sim is to get satisfaction from driving it, fun from
racing it and to have greater lasting interest for you than a simple
arcade racer. Grand Prix Legends seems to fit the bill perfectly - how
satisfying will it be to complete a lap of the original Spa or
Nurburgring, and what potential for hotlaps with close on 200 corners
to gain or lose time on?

I'm sure that GPL will have some "learner aids" to ease people into it
gently, but I guess that most people here will try to race it in "full
monty mode", with all help options disabled. I'm sure _everyone_ will
be able to drive GPL, just as long as they don't try to drive like Jim
Clark as soon as the wrapping is off. Just as I'm sure you could drive
Michael Schumacher's Ferrari, I'm equally sure you couldn't drive it
like him :)

Cheers!
John

A Few Simmers Noted:

(HUGE snip concerning SODA driving difficulty also compared with
comments about the upcoming GP Legends sim driving difficulty...)

And Finally, I say:

Excellent post John!  Harald and others raised some valid concerns, and
I feel your post offered us some new vantage points to consider.  As for
driving sims, I consider myself "Joe Average", that is, I sure enjoy
them, but I'm not the the hottest shoe around.  Your thought provoking
post/reply (along with some others) is causing me to rethink my approach
to my simming.  That is, before, my driving was more of a "pedal to the
metal... and hang on!!!" style.  But lately, I've been reading "slow is
faster", etc., and lo and behold... it DOES seem to work for me (tried
it at Darlington in N2).  The bottom line for me is:  You're right... we
approach driving our sims far more differently than we would in actual
practice. (WILD and CRAZY in our sim world as oppossed to more sensible
and within our skill level in the REAL world!)  So, as sims get more
"realistic" physics wise, we will have to adapt and drive them more
sensibly... unless we don't mind slapping walls/spinning out, etc
ump*** times per lap.  However, when we tire of that... maybe we'll try
actually DRIVING the sim.  What a novel idea.

Andre

Just got done down loading SODA. (a waste of hard disk space)
My problems with this is who whats to drive from the hood of your car?
and the sound???????????????? Now I'm a sound guy. Sound to me is very
important. Very. I would not buy this, This is going to be very
dissapointing, after waiting a long time for this, and this is what they
came up with

Greg

Maybe you should try changing views.

It wasn't meant to put a negative stamp already on GPL (or myself....;-))
but
I hope they get it right, because when they do it will be a blast to drive
around the Nordschleife......

Cheers,

Harald

Yep, and this is exactly what my point is: In a sim you have to get your
car easier out of a slide. 'till now the sims I play (N2, ICR2 and
occassionaly GP2) were made that way. And I don't expect any of those cars
to drive as easy in real life. Now thinking of it, that's why I like N2 and
ICR2 more than GP2. Mistakes are easier to get away with. Of course
practice, practice and practice is really important (I've spent tons of
hours in sim racing), but.....I don't know how to say it .....Papyrus
can make a car-physics model as real as they can but would that give us a
driveable sim? I doubt it. There will always be some sort of compromise and
I am
afraid they are going over the edge. But hey, I can always switch to arcade

mode ;-)

I do really see Papyrus logo's....

Ok, I take these words back. This is the first offroad SIM, and I will buy
it alone for that, so I shouldn't have said that.

Damn, how many months do we have to wait.........

. Just as I'm sure you could drive

Well, maybe I could start a fundraiser right here to start my motorsport
career, so that we could all find out in a couple of years if you're
right.........

Cheers,

Harald

The space bar can be used to switch the preset camera views.  Also, the
x,c,v, and b keys manually move the camera's positioning.  I didn't mind
the sound, but with my t2 temporarily out of service, the handling was
impossible with the keyboard.

--
Brian Fox

"Bill Clinton thinks that Cheerios are donut seeds"

Geocities' MotorCity Community Leader
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