rec.autos.simulators

by **Stephen Ferguso** » Wed, 26 Jul 2000 04:00:00

> thus spoke:

> >GP3 is a great example of the issue at hand. The *** r.a.s. crowd
> >simply makes the totally wrong assumption that Geoff Crammond sees
> >THEM as the target crowd. I'm pretty sure that this is not the case.
> >99% of the sim-buying public is perfectly happy with the carbehaviour
> >in GP2. So GC doesn't think it needs massive improvement over GP2
> >(like GP2 was over F1GP) and concentrates on other issues.

> >Therefore, GP3 will deliver just about what the 99% needs to reach
> >their suspension of disbelief.

> >JoH

> I bet the majority of the buyers will never have even seen GP2.
> Therefore, they are not even qualified to say what is wrong with GP3
> and will be ignorant to it's shortcomings. They will buy it just
> because it has pretty F1 cars on the box.
> --

And I will bet you are wrong. 170,000 pre-orders in the UK don't come from
a pretty box. GP2 was a million-seller, and there are a lot of people out
there who know what they got with GP2, they know what to expect from GP3,
and it sounds like they are going to get it, and be happy. I will be.

Stephen

by **Jo Hels** » Wed, 26 Jul 2000 04:00:00

On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:11:14 +0200, "Jan Verschueren"

>From the two page GP3 advert in the August issue of PC Zone.

><quote>
>Coming 28th July,

>Weather Effects, Force Feedback,
>Unprecedented Realism.

>Pre-order your copy now!
></quote>

>If what you say is true, and MPS-Hasbro doesn't want to sucker the
>***** crowd into buying this game, what's the "unprecedented realism"
>comment doing in there?

Now Jan, I didn't expect you to be THAT naive. :-) Please, this is
marketing talk. Plus the weather effects contribute to that claim
also. And remember: always targeted at the TYPICAL customer.

Sigh... The typical r.a.s. fanatic is far far far more critical when
it comes to car behaviour than even a "serious" reviewer.

Yep: "as far as I'm concerned". You admit it yourself!!! DIfferent
people, different ideas.

It was always like that as far as I'm concerned. Why did he always
provide those helpfunctions and keyboard support?? And I suspect GP2
only improved carhandling a lot basically because even a casual gamer
would recognise that F1GP was *too* far off reality. The number of
people who can point out the flaws in GP2 is considerably smaller.
Certainly the number of people who really CARE about it that much.
Therefore: not much need to improve even further. Full tumble added,
yes; Because that was also apparent to absolutely everyone, regardless
of knowledge of racecars.

I'm not arguing pro or contra any approach. Just that GC might have
this slightly different idea and thus was not even *planning* or
pretending that the *** crowd would get what it wants.

JoH

by **Jo Hels** » Wed, 26 Jul 2000 04:00:00

On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 07:00:35 -0500, rrevved

>>> I bet the majority of the buyers will never have even seen GP2.
>>> Therefore, they are not even qualified to say what is wrong with GP3
>>> and will be ignorant to it's shortcomings. They will buy it just
>>> because it has pretty F1 cars on the box.
>>> --

>>And I will bet you are wrong. 170,000 pre-orders in the UK don't come from
>>a pretty box. GP2 was a million-seller, and there are a lot of people out
>>there who know what they got with GP2, they know what to expect from GP3,
>>and it sounds like they are going to get it, and be happy. I will be.

>Me2 !

Me3!

JoH

by **Jan Verschuere** » Wed, 26 Jul 2000 04:00:00

<exaggeration>
No, just the ball, the bat is part of the user interface.
</exaggeration>

Jan. ;-)
=---

by **Jan Verschuere** » Wed, 26 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Just highlighting the lack in terminology in this respect. If the typical
customer is led to believe GP3 is "simulation", then the typical CEO of a
publisher will think it is and I can kiss any future releases tailored to my
taste goodbye. I have to act, shout, kick, whatever to prevent true
simulation from dying an early death because the first game(s) didn't sell
well.

These same reviewers seem to have no problem differentiating between
*** and general flightsims, yet when it comes to driving simulations
based on real cars/racing series sweep both types of games and potential
buyers under the same carpet. They will praise things like Flight Unlimited
to death while saying "it's more physics than fun" about CPR.

Horses for courses, I agree, but across the board. We need some terminology
to clearly determine what's what and I'm laying claim on the term simulation
for my end of the market.

A nod to the "casual gamesplayer", I thought, to make sure his games sold
well, so he could continue to improve them. Doh! ;-(

In light of recent events I have to agree with you there. I used to believe
he had *higher* motives. Had you said this before GPL, I would have even
vigorously defended Geoff, strange as that may seem to you.

If you don't *care* you deserve to get ripped off by an endless stream of
eyecandy/season/fluff updates. Anyone who is any way serious about driving
simulated race cars as a hobby *cares* after he/she reaches a certain level.
There is nothing more frustating than taking a corner like you've done
hundreds of times before and flying off for no apparent reason whatsoever
every now and again. It's even more frustrating than flying off for the
ump***th time because you weren't smooth enough on turn-in.

Even the most casual of F1 watchers must notice some of the inaccuracies?
(-putting it mildly <g>)

Like I said, I was betrayed, maybe by my own beliefs and expectations, but
betrayed nonetheless.

Jan.
=---

by **Peter Ive** » Wed, 26 Jul 2000 04:00:00

>On Mon, 24 Jul 2000 15:53:25 +0100, Peter Ives

>>>Jan, what you keep failing to see is that there is more involved than
>>>the physics alone. You always concentrate on the *driving*sim. But a
>>>*racing*sim needs AI, influence of weather, atmosphere etc.. too. Even
>>>with the limited info that we have now, it looks like GP3 will make
>>>guaranteed progress in those departments. But no, the slightest doubt
>>>about the smallest issue of the drivingmodel seems enough for you to
>>>discard those aspects as unimportant details. That goes just a
>>>*little* bit too far for my taste...

>>Yes, but that is the most important part. I don't know about others,
>>but I spend 99% of my time on any driving sim actually either driving
>>the thing (racing or testing) or in the garage trying to get a decent
>>setup. All the other extras are an improvement without a doubt, but in
>>the end how it feels when driving is still the most essential component.
>>--
>>Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington)

>GP3 is a great example of the issue at hand. The *** r.a.s. crowd
>simply makes the totally wrong assumption that Geoff Crammond sees
>THEM as the target crowd. I'm pretty sure that this is not the case.
>99% of the sim-buying public is perfectly happy with the carbehaviour
>in GP2. So GC doesn't think it needs massive improvement over GP2
>(like GP2 was over F1GP) and concentrates on other issues.

>Therefore, GP3 will deliver just about what the 99% needs to reach
>their suspension of disbelief.

>JoH

Well I can only speak for myself, unfortunately and I am not aware of
what GC or the other 99% of the public are thinking. You are obviously
more prescient than I am. :)

You are probably right, of course, and good for them if they are all
joyously happy with the sim. However, the driving model for me is still
the most important part. This does not mean that I will not be buying
GP3 though. It does appear that the weather affects may just about tip
the balance in favour of me buying it. I have not tried the warez
version and will not be rushing out to purchase GP3 on the 28th. I will
bide my time to see what others have to say once they have had the
opportunity to play the official full version. :)
--
Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington)

No person's opinions can be said to be
more correct than another's, because each is
the sole judge of his or her own experience.

by **Martin D. Pa** » Wed, 26 Jul 2000 04:00:00

On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:11:14 +0200, "Jan Verschueren"

thus:

<grin> It's called hype. And I doubt it was written by GC.

But the evils of marketing men are a whole 'nother topic... ^_-

Martin D. Pay
Fully believes that GP3 will provide what *he* wants in a
game/sim - but also accepts that it may not for others

by **Glen Pries** » Fri, 28 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Pretty good stuff, Jan! I could stand to read about anything in this
NG on our "hobby" (mania, ***ion, avocation, etc.) as long as the
writer can make me laugh! :-))) Glen Priest
PS. Now there HAVE been times you have made me angry, but maybe that
was one of those make-believe, rattle someone's chain rants, huh?

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