rec.autos.simulators

I think TEN/NROS does what you describe above as well as any current
system available.  I would be surprised if they havn't used some of what
they learned in TEN/NROS with GPL.  Remember the kali/nascar2 days?  LOL
--- Man that stunk way worse than GPL.

Bill / Amish on TEN

Question:  You are saying the current GPL system doesn't use some type
of Prediction Code when Online racing?

Like I said I've been racing online for a year and a half and never had
anything close to the problems I, and others I know, are having now.

Yes, I was there, with a ping of about 250 to Randy and it was so bad I had
to quit. I also saw people being disconnected and two guys chatting about a
previous race they had and how it was a shame they were disconnected after
20 laps. I've had races with Randy in the past as host (during MTM2 beta
testing) where everything was fine. Since my original post my attempts have
all turned out the same, along with still seeing others disconnected. My
friends report the same.

Your post is interesting. There must be a bug somewhere and I hope Papyrus
is looking into it. Obviously some are having success but many others
aren't. It's not my connection. I've always had great success with online
play. If they had released a demo with multi play ability they might have
found these problems before the release of the full game.

David G Fisher
DmndDave

Definitely. Like I said it's not just me. Too many online racing regulars
that I chat with regularly are having the same problems.

I don't doubt you at all but I've seen many races where there were massive
disconnects of many different racers. Not just the same couple of guys.
I've seen chats about these problems in the chat rooms, and other racers
have told me the same thing. Including here at r.a.s.

I, and others I know have had excellent pings, but the performance is still
poor.

They would have had these same problems in the past but haven't.

Not at all. I'm sure anyone who is having these problems would appreciate
your taking the time to help like you have.

I can tell by this post and the one in which you gave tips to online racing
beginners that you have quickly become ***ed to online racing. It's
impossible to break the habit too.  :-) Like you said, AI racing just isn't
the same. I hope I get to see you on the track too.

David G Fisher
DmndDave

I remember joining 3 seperate races and being glad to see your name.
Unfortunately you and most of the field was disconnected. >

That's what I and others would like to know.

The thing is that me and the others have NEVER had the problems we are
having now with online racing.

Some companies may feel that way but MS for example obviously feels
differently since all of their latest racing games have made the online play
a major feature, along with the Zone. Maybe that's why their games perform
so well. Whether someone likes or hates MS, they've had a bit of success in
predicting trends in the computer industry. Papyrus apparently wasn't too
interested in online racing with GPL and perhaps that's why people are
having problems? I'm not ripping them but it does seem logical.

I'm not doubting your experience at all, but MTM2 received overwhelmingly
positive reviews for it's online play. There's still a hundred people
playing at the Zone every night. MCM has got great reviews for online play
too with even more racers.

I know online racing is not new for you. I know that you are a top driver in
N2 online. :-)

Sounds right.

I'd feel a little mnore confident that these problems will be solved if I
hadn't heard of this attitude by Papyrus towards online play. It's kind of
interesting that they never released a demo with online ability and that the
Papy Cup had to be run on a LAN which made it impossible for the all the
beta testers to participate.

I would imagine that N3 will be even more demanding on computers, at least
graphically, so there may be cause to be worried. Only Papyrus can tell us
if they are getting flooded with complaints about online racing problems to
their customer service. I know it's a bigger problem than just me.

Thanks Art  for the suggestions but I already went through those steps when
VROC testing started. So have others I know of with the same problems. Our
mutual racing friend in Hungary is the one I referred to in my original
post. He said he hasn't been able to race you guys yet. Maybe this will all
get figured out soon. Since some have no problems at all, and others are
having no luck, it may be a bug instead of an overall problem with the way
online play was programmed. That's actually good news.

David G Fisher
DmndDave

But you would still have the possibility of one instance of the program believing
its car had crashed into the other one's because it had got the position of the
other wrong. The converse of this is driving into what you beleived was empty
road that the other instance of the program knew to be occupied by its car. There
is no solution to this, the most upsetting of warp problems, except for having
megabit lines or LANs. It's ***y irritating being run off the road by a car
that doesn't exist.Paul

This is exactly what can happen in Motocross Madness when racing
online.  That program appears to essentially run each race
independently.  There can be a significant time offset between the
participants.   Crashes between bikes almost always result in only one
player being affected.  The other goes on with no knowledge of the
impact since the crash was in essence with a "time-shifted" version of
his bike.

--
Scott Pritchett         Director of Engineering

415-933-3080            Silicon Graphics, Mountain View, CA

I think they did a good job for multi-player. (NOTE:  I have tweeked my
system for NROS and online *** and that is probably why I feel the
client to client GPL is decent.)  What I still don't understand is why
PAPY/Sierra or whomever didn't put GPL on a dedicated service (Like TEN
or MPLAYER or Zone etc.).  Note:  I think Richard and I would agree that
about 90+% of ALL Warping issues is as a result of THAT person's OWN
connection to the internet.  Maybe THEIR ISP stinks, their connection to
their ISP stinks or a whole host of other issues.  If you want a good
connection for online game playing you will need to TWEEK your own
connection BEFORE you *** about the quality of play.  I have heard of
guys testing 3-4 ISP's before they found one that was good for online
***.

Bill / Amish on TEN

There's no ***ing. I'm reporting facts. I'm hardly the only one who's
having these problems. At VROC they are working on a way now to limit the
number of players in a race. Why? Because of the damn disconnects. If you
read my original post, you'll see that I've have a ton of online racing
experience so I know what to expect from online ***. How do you know my
connection hasn't been TWEAKED since the day I got GPL? GPL is working for
some, and not working for many others. If people get personally offended by
that fact (as if they own Papyrus), too bad. Last night I made it into a
race. Warping was bad but I continued. Explain why 8 out of the original
field ended up disconnected after 5 laps. Maybe some quit but I kind of
doubt it.

Richard,

I don't see your post for some reason (occasionally others don't show and
I'm not sure why) so I'm responding to the above in Bill's post.
I just looked through the Papy Cup reports and I don't see Achim's name
anywhere. I also don't see the name's of any of the other 7 beta testers
except Alison's. Your kind of hinting that I'm lying. Maybe you ought to
read the reports like you advised me. It is stated that the Cup was held
over a LAN at Papyrus.  Obviously they decided not to do it TCP/IP and
include the beta testers. Why? Too unstable? Why not include multiplay in a
demo too?

David g Fisher

In each race? I don't see the names.

David G Fisher

via 33.6 modem, I raced

The Papy cup wasn't nearly as organized as Alison's site would lead you
to believe, but the beta testers weren't in the initial races mainly due
to problems on our end in giving them access through the firewall.
Additionally there were times when the version we had in-house wasn't
compatible with the version that the testers had at the time anyway.

- Eric

On Fri, 23 Oct 1998 18:56:16 -0400, "David G Fisher"

Richard is correct - Achim raced from Spain via 33.6 modem, I raced
from Scotland via 28.8 modem, Alison joined via modem, Doug too (If I
forgot anyone I'm sorry!).

I had no problems and I don't recall any other testers describing any
wierd phenomenon.

Cheers!
John

You say that GPL is more subject to the quirks of the internet. That's a
very odd way of saying the game doesn't perform well online. You ought to be
a politician John.  :-)  It's inability to handle the quirks of the internet
means it wasn't coded well for online play. Especially compared to other
sims. That's why I started this thread.

David G Fisher

Where was your online racing experience from?  NROS?  MTM?  or Motorcross
Madness?  Have you ever played in massively multiplayer setting?

Why 5 disconnected?  I can PROMISE you that you are dealing with SO MANY
variables it isn't funny.  How many hops between their ISP and the ultimate
host.  Did 1 of the servers (hops) between that particular racer and the host
have a hiccup and cause a boot?  Did their own modem timeout?  Tell me HOW
Papyrus could code a game to take into account that many variables?

P.S  My Team has over 5,000 ONLINE NROS Races - 100,000+ ONLINE LAPS - 2,000+
WINS - HAVE 3 GUYS RANKED IN TOP 10
and I can tell you that the majority of ALL warps etc have something to do with
your own connection or ISP.

Bill / Amish on TEN