rec.autos.simulators

by **Tom Pabs** » Tue, 13 Aug 2002 07:18:06

Okay...let's separate out all the ***and get to the point.

Here's what I think would make the RASCAR racing on Saturday "fun" and
something I would spend 2 or 3 hours doing on a Saturday. This is my own
opinion of "fun" and if shared by others....great. If not....that's great
too.

**What Would Make RASCAR Racing Fun**

1. No points tabulation from race to race.
[That way I don't have to obligate that time slot to every weekend. If that
were the case, then it would the same burden as a league and I don't run in
leagues just for that reason.....I can't fix my schedule in advance to be
certain of not missing a substantial number of league races. RASCAR does
this already.]

2. Have a place to go find some good "door to door" racing...at least once
a week, with/against people I've known for a long time.
[I could get that in a league race, but I've already stated my schedule
doesn't allow it. So, this RASCAR event on Saturday could always be run
when I wanted to get that fix.]

3. Getting to race with some experienced drivers on tracks that I have less
experience on.
[This would motivate me to practice and learn some tracks where my
experience is low. And, I could benefit from seeing first hand, how some of
the more experienced drivers run the track and therefore better pin down my
weaknesses.]

**What Would Make RASCAR Racing NOT Fun**

1. Being forced to race with novice drivers.
[Per number 2 above, having novice drivers interfere with the racing.
Racing against novices is not always fun....its also not "racing" for an
experienced driver since he has no feelings of accomplishment in winning or
beating a novice driver. In fact, its called "teaching".....not racing.]

**What Could Be Added To The RASCAR Format To Accomplish The Fun (and avoid
the not fun)?**

1. Hold two RASCAR races on Saturday, back to back (not at the same
time -:).....).

2. Make one of them a "pro or experienced-drivers-only" race....the other a
"novice" or open race (as the RASCAR races are now).

3. Make the "pro" race an invitation only event.
[On the driver registration area at RSC, allow a driver to make an entry
that says he wants to be invited to the "pro" races, and thus require
his/her email address to be included in the driver registration. On
Wednesday or Thursday of each week there is to be a RASCAR race, someone who
is appointed in advance to do this function, decides who will be "invited"
to the pro race on Saturday, makes a 'post' on r.a.s. with a list of the
names, and sends (via private email) the unique PW for the race that coming
weekend. The "drivers" invited can RSVP for the race that weekend, by
virtue of making a post in the string of the invite post. As the weekend
approaches, additional drives can be invited if there is not a full field of
RSVP's developing for that coming race. The position of making up the
weekly "pro race" invite list can be totally volunteer....with say a
requirement that you do it for say two months....then the next person takes
over the job for only two months...and so on. Its not a huge "time
consuming" thing to do once a week...for about 8 times.

4. Make the "novice" race an open invitation race (open to all who visit
r.a.s. and know the "standing pw" for the novice race).

5. Make the "novice" race open to any "experienced driver" who wants to run
in it as well....or maybe many times some of the drivers invited to the
"pro" race can't make it because of their schedule.......but can make the
"novice" race time slot. Encourage the experienced drivers to run in the
"novice" race as often as they can.....to help the novice drivers gain
experience. This also allows the "experienced" drivers a chance to view and
observe the novice drivers, too......and see first hand who is running
well....and maybe deserving of a "provisional invitation" to the pro race.
No?

There are advantages and disadvantages to the system described above (as I
see it...others may exist too):

**Advantages**

1. Novice drivers are not interfering with the experienced drivers race
(and fun).
2. Experienced drivers can choose which race they want to run
in.....choosing the novice race when they are in the mood to teach....the
pro race when they are in the mood to try to kick some ***of one of or
more of their r.a.s. buddies! They can also choose the novice race if they
are not very experienced at the track being run that weekend.
3. Novice drivers have a more relaxed racing atmosphere since they are not
under pressure to avoid screwing up somebody's race with their rookie
mistakes. This makes for a much better learning environment as well, IMHO.
You'd probably get many more novice drivers to participate....and that would
be good for sim racing.
4. Everyone who visits r.a.s. can still get to race each other......you've
just got the added opportunity/benefit to choose which way you want to do
it.
5. If someone on the "pro" race invite list is not deserving to remain on
that list because of their on-track actual performance, their name can
quietly be dropped from the list and no big public deal is made of it.
6. A quasi-award system is in place, to encourage novice drivers to
practice and get better. When I was a novice driver, I would have thought
it was cool to do well enough to ***earn*** and invitation to the pro race!
Way cool....as a matter of fact.
7. This system is flexible enough by its "open architecture" that as new
people visiting r.a.s., they can easily participate by simply registering
their info and car at the RASCAR site....and indicating if they want a pro
race invite by additionally giving their email address.

**Disadvantages**

1. It would require slightly more "administration" of the RASCAR race on
Saturday....but not much more, for the huge benefit it would give (IMHO).
In also MHO, if a minimum amount of administration isn't forthcoming
(handling the driver registration and car sets in a timely manner, writing
the pro race invite list weekly, and operating the race server on
Saturday)....then this RASCAR thing will die off anyway. That would be a
shame.

So, what do you guys think? Are there more "advantages" you can think of?
Are there more "disadvantages?" What's your vote? Are your for this or
against it? Let's go with the consensus....and move on.

TP

by **Schoone** » Tue, 13 Aug 2002 07:35:31

Who exactly is going to make this invite list and determine people's
abilities?
As you said yourself Tom the abilities range from track to track so those
that are great on one track may not even be able to make a lap on another.

by **John Pancoas** » Tue, 13 Aug 2002 07:36:55

Leave as is, is my vote. Don't fix what ain't broke. This is Rascar's
format, it seems to be working well, take it or leave it, simple as that.
But since who knows if/when I'll ever be able to do another, who cares what
I think <g>

John

by **K. Butto** » Tue, 13 Aug 2002 07:37:36

KB

by **John Simmon** » Tue, 13 Aug 2002 07:43:43

Well, I think the invite-only method that you laid out would pretty much
go against what we're trying to do, or at least *my* perception of what
we're trying to do.

I think it would cause a lot of hard feelings and general hate and
discontent if people thought they were considered less than capable of
running with the "pros". Besides, how are they expected to get better
at this if they don't have better drivers to race against.

I personally wish I were as fast as Mike Grandy, but I just don't see
how he pushes the <fast> setup like he does. I simply try to drive as
fast and as hard as I think I can and try not to wreck. That's really
all I ask of anyone that's sharing the same chunk of asphalt with me.

I think maybe we should think about holding a qualifying race for new
guys at each track type to see how they do against current Rascarians
before we add them to the invite list. That way, we could determine for
ourselfs if we want them racing with us.

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by **Tom Pabs** » Tue, 13 Aug 2002 07:45:03

Schooner....

Don't over think this. Its not that hard.

At first, the "pro invite" list will have to be somewhat arbitrary....but
not difficult to get say 90% right. I could do that in five minutes. We
also could probably very easily trust the good judgment of these experienced
drivers to stay out of a "pro" race if held at a track where they had little
or no experience.

Example: If the RASCAR race was at Homestead next week....and I was on the
"pro" invite list for the week. I wouldn't run in the pro race, I'd choose
the novice/open race, because I don't have much experience racing at that
track.

I think most of the experienced drivers here (if not all) could be left to
their own decision about that sort of thing, don't you?

TP

"Schooner" <schoo...@accesswave.ca> wrote in message

news:7CB59.5668$C8.52289@nnrp1.uunet.ca...

> Who exactly is going to make this invite list and determine people's
> abilities?
> As you said yourself Tom the abilities range from track to track so those
> that are great on one track may not even be able to make a lap on another.

> "Tom Pabst" <tmpa...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:yoB59.65106$UU1.11865@sccrnsc03...
> > Okay...let's separate out all the crap and get to the point.

> > Here's what I think would make the RASCAR racing on Saturday "fun" and
> > something I would spend 2 or 3 hours doing on a Saturday. This is my
own
> > opinion of "fun" and if shared by others....great. If not....that's
great
> > too.

> > **What Would Make RASCAR Racing Fun**

> > 1. No points tabulation from race to race.
> > [That way I don't have to obligate that time slot to every weekend. If
> that
> > were the case, then it would the same burden as a league and I don't run
> in
> > leagues just for that reason.....I can't fix my schedule in advance to
be
> > certain of not missing a substantial number of league races. RASCAR
does
> > this already.]

> > 2. Have a place to go find some good "door to door" racing...at least
> once
> > a week, with/against people I've known for a long time.
> > [I could get that in a league race, but I've already stated my schedule
> > doesn't allow it. So, this RASCAR event on Saturday could always be run
> > when I wanted to get that fix.]

> > 3. Getting to race with some experienced drivers on tracks that I have
> less
> > experience on.
> > [This would motivate me to practice and learn some tracks where my
> > experience is low. And, I could benefit from seeing first hand, how
some
> of
> > the more experienced drivers run the track and therefore better pin down
> my
> > weaknesses.]

> > **What Would Make RASCAR Racing NOT Fun**

> > 1. Being forced to race with novice drivers.
> > [Per number 2 above, having novice drivers interfere with the racing.
> > Racing against novices is not always fun....its also not "racing" for an
> > experienced driver since he has no feelings of accomplishment in winning
> or
> > beating a novice driver. In fact, its called "teaching".....not
racing.]

> > **What Could Be Added To The RASCAR Format To Accomplish The Fun (and
> avoid
> > the not fun)?**

> > 1. Hold two RASCAR races on Saturday, back to back (not at the same
> > time -:).....).

> > 2. Make one of them a "pro or experienced-drivers-only" race....the
other
> a
> > "novice" or open race (as the RASCAR races are now).

> > 3. Make the "pro" race an invitation only event.
> > [On the driver registration area at RSC, allow a driver to make an entry
> > that says he wants to be invited to the "pro" races, and thus require
> > his/her email address to be included in the driver registration. On
> > Wednesday or Thursday of each week there is to be a RASCAR race, someone
> who
> > is appointed in advance to do this function, decides who will be
"invited"
> > to the pro race on Saturday, makes a 'post' on r.a.s. with a list of the
> > names, and sends (via private email) the unique PW for the race that
> coming
> > weekend. The "drivers" invited can RSVP for the race that weekend, by
> > virtue of making a post in the string of the invite post. As the
weekend
> > approaches, additional drives can be invited if there is not a full
field
> of
> > RSVP's developing for that coming race. The position of making up the
> > weekly "pro race" invite list can be totally volunteer....with say a
> > requirement that you do it for say two months....then the next person
> takes
> > over the job for only two months...and so on. Its not a huge "time
> > consuming" thing to do once a week...for about 8 times.

> > 4. Make the "novice" race an open invitation race (open to all who
visit
> > r.a.s. and know the "standing pw" for the novice race).

> > 5. Make the "novice" race open to any "experienced driver" who wants to
> run
> > in it as well....or maybe many times some of the drivers invited to the
> > "pro" race can't make it because of their schedule.......but can make
the
> > "novice" race time slot. Encourage the experienced drivers to run in
the
> > "novice" race as often as they can.....to help the novice drivers gain
> > experience. This also allows the "experienced" drivers a chance to view
> and
> > observe the novice drivers, too......and see first hand who is running
> > well....and maybe deserving of a "provisional invitation" to the pro
race.
> > No?

> > There are advantages and disadvantages to the system described above (as
I
> > see it...others may exist too):

> > **Advantages**

> > 1. Novice drivers are not interfering with the experienced drivers race
> > (and fun).
> > 2. Experienced drivers can choose which race they want to run
> > in.....choosing the novice race when they are in the mood to
teach....the
> > pro race when they are in the mood to try to kick some butt of one of or
> > more of their r.a.s. buddies! They can also choose the novice race if
> they
> > are not very experienced at the track being run that weekend.
> > 3. Novice drivers have a more relaxed racing atmosphere since they are
> not
> > under pressure to avoid screwing up somebody's race with their rookie
> > mistakes. This makes for a much better learning environment as well,
> IMHO.
> > You'd probably get many more novice drivers to participate....and that
> would
> > be good for sim racing.
> > 4. Everyone who visits r.a.s. can still get to race each
> other......you've
> > just got the added opportunity/benefit to choose which way you want to
do
> > it.
> > 5. If someone on the "pro" race invite list is not deserving to remain
on
> > that list because of their on-track actual performance, their name can
> > quietly be dropped from the list and no big public deal is made of it.
> > 6. A quasi-award system is in place, to encourage novice drivers to
> > practice and get better. When I was a novice driver, I would have
thought
> > it was cool to do well enough to ***earn*** and invitation to the pro
> race!
> > Way cool....as a matter of fact.
> > 7. This system is flexible enough by its "open architecture" that as
new
> > people visiting r.a.s., they can easily participate by simply
registering
> > their info and car at the RASCAR site....and indicating if they want a
pro
> > race invite by additionally giving their email address.

> > **Disadvantages**

> > 1. It would require slightly more "administration" of the RASCAR race
on
> > Saturday....but not much more, for the huge benefit it would give
(IMHO).
> > In also MHO, if a minimum amount of administration isn't forthcoming
> > (handling the driver registration and car sets in a timely manner,
writing
> > the pro race invite list weekly, and operating the race server on
> > Saturday)....then this RASCAR thing will die off anyway. That would be
a
> > shame.

> > So, what do you guys think? Are there more "advantages" you can think
of?
> > Are there more "disadvantages?" What's your vote? Are your for this or
> > against it? Let's go with the consensus....and move on.

> > TP

by **Schoone** » Tue, 13 Aug 2002 07:51:03

Yes the more experienced ones could make that call but many people won't.
Myself for example I run a league but yet I have never raced with RASCAR and
no one would know where I should be placed and thus I wouldn't make your
list. I think a number of other "good" drivers would fall in this area as
well.
Unless it's an official league and run like one I think it has to be open to
all.

"Tom Pabst" <tmpa...@attbi.com> wrote in message

news:PNB59.68745$7n5.10585@sccrnsc01...

> Schooner....

> Don't over think this. Its not that hard.

> At first, the "pro invite" list will have to be somewhat arbitrary....but
> not difficult to get say 90% right. I could do that in five minutes. We
> also could probably very easily trust the good judgment of these
experienced
> drivers to stay out of a "pro" race if held at a track where they had
little
> or no experience.

> Example: If the RASCAR race was at Homestead next week....and I was on
the
> "pro" invite list for the week. I wouldn't run in the pro race, I'd
choose
> the novice/open race, because I don't have much experience racing at that
> track.

> I think most of the experienced drivers here (if not all) could be left to
> their own decision about that sort of thing, don't you?

> TP

> "Schooner" <schoo...@accesswave.ca> wrote in message
> news:7CB59.5668$C8.52289@nnrp1.uunet.ca...
> > Who exactly is going to make this invite list and determine people's
> > abilities?
> > As you said yourself Tom the abilities range from track to track so
those
> > that are great on one track may not even be able to make a lap on
another.

> > "Tom Pabst" <tmpa...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> > news:yoB59.65106$UU1.11865@sccrnsc03...
> > > Okay...let's separate out all the crap and get to the point.

> > > Here's what I think would make the RASCAR racing on Saturday "fun" and
> > > something I would spend 2 or 3 hours doing on a Saturday. This is my
> own
> > > opinion of "fun" and if shared by others....great. If not....that's
> great
> > > too.

> > > **What Would Make RASCAR Racing Fun**

> > > 1. No points tabulation from race to race.
> > > [That way I don't have to obligate that time slot to every weekend.
If
> > that
> > > were the case, then it would the same burden as a league and I don't
run
> > in
> > > leagues just for that reason.....I can't fix my schedule in advance to
> be
> > > certain of not missing a substantial number of league races. RASCAR
> does
> > > this already.]

> > > 2. Have a place to go find some good "door to door" racing...at least
> > once
> > > a week, with/against people I've known for a long time.
> > > [I could get that in a league race, but I've already stated my
schedule
> > > doesn't allow it. So, this RASCAR event on Saturday could always be
run
> > > when I wanted to get that fix.]

> > > 3. Getting to race with some experienced drivers on tracks that I
have
> > less
> > > experience on.
> > > [This would motivate me to practice and learn some tracks where my
> > > experience is low. And, I could benefit from seeing first hand, how
> some
> > of
> > > the more experienced drivers run the track and therefore better pin
down
> > my
> > > weaknesses.]

> > > **What Would Make RASCAR Racing NOT Fun**

> > > 1. Being forced to race with novice drivers.
> > > [Per number 2 above, having novice drivers interfere with the racing.
> > > Racing against novices is not always fun....its also not "racing" for
an
> > > experienced driver since he has no feelings of accomplishment in
winning
> > or
> > > beating a novice driver. In fact, its called "teaching".....not
> racing.]

> > > **What Could Be Added To The RASCAR Format To Accomplish The Fun (and
> > avoid
> > > the not fun)?**

> > > 1. Hold two RASCAR races on Saturday, back to back (not at the same
> > > time -:).....).

> > > 2. Make one of them a "pro or experienced-drivers-only" race....the
> other
> > a
> > > "novice" or open race (as the RASCAR races are now).

> > > 3. Make the "pro" race an invitation only event.
> > > [On the driver registration area at RSC, allow a driver to make an
entry
> > > that says he wants to be invited to the "pro" races, and thus require
> > > his/her email address to be included in the driver registration. On
> > > Wednesday or Thursday of each week there is to be a RASCAR race,
someone
> > who
> > > is appointed in advance to do this function, decides who will be
> "invited"
> > > to the pro race on Saturday, makes a 'post' on r.a.s. with a list of
the
> > > names, and sends (via private email) the unique PW for the race that
> > coming
> > > weekend. The "drivers" invited can RSVP for the race that weekend, by
> > > virtue of making a post in the string of the invite post. As the
> weekend
> > > approaches, additional drives can be invited if there is not a full
> field
> > of
> > > RSVP's developing for that coming race. The position of making up the
> > > weekly "pro race" invite list can be totally volunteer....with say a
> > > requirement that you do it for say two months....then the next person
> > takes
> > > over the job for only two months...and so on. Its not a huge "time
> > > consuming" thing to do once a week...for about 8 times.

> > > 4. Make the "novice" race an open invitation race (open to all who
> visit
> > > r.a.s. and know the "standing pw" for the novice race).

> > > 5. Make the "novice" race open to any "experienced driver" who wants
to
> > run
> > > in it as well....or maybe many times some of the drivers invited to
the
> > > "pro" race can't make it because of their schedule.......but can make
> the
> > > "novice" race time slot. Encourage the experienced drivers to run in
> the
> > > "novice" race as often as they can.....to help the novice drivers gain
> > > experience. This also allows the "experienced" drivers a chance to
view
> > and
> > > observe the novice drivers, too......and see first hand who is running
> > > well....and maybe deserving of a "provisional invitation" to the pro
> race.
> > > No?

> > > There are advantages and disadvantages to the system described above
(as
> I
> > > see it...others may exist too):

> > > **Advantages**

> > > 1. Novice drivers are not interfering with the experienced drivers
race
> > > (and fun).
> > > 2. Experienced drivers can choose which race they want to run
> > > in.....choosing the novice race when they are in the mood to
> teach....the
> > > pro race when they are in the mood to try to kick some butt of one of
or
> > > more of their r.a.s. buddies! They can also choose the novice race if
> > they
> > > are not very experienced at the track being run that weekend.
> > > 3. Novice drivers have a more relaxed racing atmosphere since they
are
> > not
> > > under pressure to avoid screwing up somebody's race with their rookie
> > > mistakes. This makes for a much better learning environment as well,
> > IMHO.
> > > You'd probably get many more novice drivers to participate....and that
> > would
> > > be good for sim racing.
> > > 4. Everyone who visits r.a.s. can still get to race each
> > other......you've
> > > just got the added opportunity/benefit to choose which way you want to
> do
> > > it.
> > > 5. If someone on the "pro" race invite list is not deserving to
remain
> on
> > > that list because of their on-track actual performance, their name can
> > > quietly be dropped from the list and no big public deal is made of it.
> > > 6. A quasi-award system is in place, to encourage novice drivers to
> > > practice and get better. When I was a novice driver, I would have
> thought
> > > it was cool to do well enough to ***earn*** and invitation to the pro
> > race!
> > > Way cool....as a matter of fact.
> > > 7. This system is flexible enough by its "open architecture" that as
> new
> > > people visiting r.a.s., they can easily participate by simply
> registering
> > > their info and car at the RASCAR site....and indicating if they want a
> pro
> > > race invite by additionally giving their email address.

> > > **Disadvantages**

> > > 1. It would require slightly more "administration" of the RASCAR race
> on
> > > Saturday....but not much more, for the huge benefit it would give
> (IMHO).
> > > In also MHO, if a minimum amount of administration isn't forthcoming
> > > (handling the driver registration and car sets in a timely manner,
> writing
> > > the pro race invite list weekly, and operating the race server on
> > > Saturday)....then this RASCAR thing will die off anyway. That would
be
> a
> > > shame.

> > > So, what do you guys think? Are there more "advantages" you can think
> of?
> > > Are there more "disadvantages?" What's your vote? Are your for this
or
> > > against it? Let's go with the consensus....and move on.

> > > TP

by **ymenar** » Tue, 13 Aug 2002 07:41:30

> Here's what I think would make the RASCAR racing on Saturday "fun"

It's already fun. It should stay the same. Why do you want things to
change? Another time, RASCAR is not made for you, as in, it won't be
modified only to please you and what kind of "fun" you personally want. You
have to accept some compromise in life, you know...

I mean there is NOTHING wrong with RASCAR at this moment, what's the
fuss!!!! You basically did ONE race, one single race and you start writing
like you know the cure to all of it's (non-existing) problems.

Sorry but that's a fact of life.

I think that you are wasting your "so precious" time by writing all these
things. RASCAR doesn't need to change at all.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **David Coo** » Tue, 13 Aug 2002 07:53:36

Why don't you guys start a thread for your vote instead of each one of you with
your own thread and make sure you put RASCAR in the subject okay? Thanks.

- David Cook

by **John Pancoas** » Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:15:47

Bit curious about that myself; one race, etc.

John

> > Here's what I think would make the RASCAR racing on Saturday "fun"

> It's already fun. It should stay the same. Why do you want things to
> change? Another time, RASCAR is not made for you, as in, it won't be
> modified only to please you and what kind of "fun" you personally want.
You
> have to accept some compromise in life, you know...

> I mean there is NOTHING wrong with RASCAR at this moment, what's the
> fuss!!!! You basically did ONE race, one single race and you start
writing
> like you know the cure to all of it's (non-existing) problems.

> > **What Would Make RASCAR Racing NOT Fun**

> > 1. Being forced to race with novice drivers.
> > [Per number 2 above, having novice drivers interfere with the racing.
> > Racing against novices is not always fun....its also not "racing" for an
> > experienced driver since he has no feelings of accomplishment in winning
> or
> > beating a novice driver. In fact, its called "teaching".....not
racing.]

> Sorry but that's a fact of life.

> > So, what do you guys think?

> I think that you are wasting your "so precious" time by writing all these
> things. RASCAR doesn't need to change at all.

> --
> -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/
> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
> Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **Mike Grand** » Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:43:51

--
Mike Grandy
www.precision-racing.com

by **David G Fishe** » Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:45:05

They are all in the same thread. You need to group messages by conversation
or you're going to get confused.

David G Fisher

> Why don't you guys start a thread for your vote instead of each one of you
with
> your own thread and make sure you put RASCAR in the subject okay? Thanks.

> - David Cook

by **Dave Henri** » Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:50:20

We could have a RASCAR for the Pro drivers and a Lastcar for the
rest..............
dh

by **Tom Pabs** » Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:57:42

Schooner....

Well, you'd make the list now because of your post above. Couldn't we post
a "draft" of a possible "pro" list and let those who are not on the initial
list....but want to be or think they should be, make a post like you just
did. How hard is that?

Maybe it would take a few weeks......but I bet not.......the "invite list"
would be accurate as to abilities/experience, and if not....continued
culling and adding could be possible on an ongoing basis?

TP

"Schooner" <schoo...@accesswave.ca> wrote in message

news:HQB59.5671$C8.52159@nnrp1.uunet.ca...

> Yes the more experienced ones could make that call but many people won't.
> Myself for example I run a league but yet I have never raced with RASCAR
and
> no one would know where I should be placed and thus I wouldn't make your
> list. I think a number of other "good" drivers would fall in this area as
> well.
> Unless it's an official league and run like one I think it has to be open
to
> all.

> "Tom Pabst" <tmpa...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:PNB59.68745$7n5.10585@sccrnsc01...
> > Schooner....

> > Don't over think this. Its not that hard.

> > At first, the "pro invite" list will have to be somewhat
arbitrary....but
> > not difficult to get say 90% right. I could do that in five minutes.
We
> > also could probably very easily trust the good judgment of these
> experienced
> > drivers to stay out of a "pro" race if held at a track where they had
> little
> > or no experience.

> > Example: If the RASCAR race was at Homestead next week....and I was on
> the
> > "pro" invite list for the week. I wouldn't run in the pro race, I'd
> choose
> > the novice/open race, because I don't have much experience racing at
that
> > track.

> > I think most of the experienced drivers here (if not all) could be left
to
> > their own decision about that sort of thing, don't you?

> > TP

> > "Schooner" <schoo...@accesswave.ca> wrote in message
> > news:7CB59.5668$C8.52289@nnrp1.uunet.ca...
> > > Who exactly is going to make this invite list and determine people's
> > > abilities?
> > > As you said yourself Tom the abilities range from track to track so
> those
> > > that are great on one track may not even be able to make a lap on
> another.

> > > "Tom Pabst" <tmpa...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> > > news:yoB59.65106$UU1.11865@sccrnsc03...
> > > > Okay...let's separate out all the crap and get to the point.

> > > > Here's what I think would make the RASCAR racing on Saturday "fun"
and
> > > > something I would spend 2 or 3 hours doing on a Saturday. This is
my
> > own
> > > > opinion of "fun" and if shared by others....great. If not....that's
> > great
> > > > too.

> > > > **What Would Make RASCAR Racing Fun**

> > > > 1. No points tabulation from race to race.
> > > > [That way I don't have to obligate that time slot to every weekend.
> If
> > > that
> > > > were the case, then it would the same burden as a league and I don't
> run
> > > in
> > > > leagues just for that reason.....I can't fix my schedule in advance
to
> > be
> > > > certain of not missing a substantial number of league races. RASCAR
> > does
> > > > this already.]

> > > > 2. Have a place to go find some good "door to door" racing...at
least
> > > once
> > > > a week, with/against people I've known for a long time.
> > > > [I could get that in a league race, but I've already stated my
> schedule
> > > > doesn't allow it. So, this RASCAR event on Saturday could always be
> run
> > > > when I wanted to get that fix.]

> > > > 3. Getting to race with some experienced drivers on tracks that I
> have
> > > less
> > > > experience on.
> > > > [This would motivate me to practice and learn some tracks where my
> > > > experience is low. And, I could benefit from seeing first hand, how
> > some
> > > of
> > > > the more experienced drivers run the track and therefore better pin
> down
> > > my
> > > > weaknesses.]

> > > > **What Would Make RASCAR Racing NOT Fun**

> > > > 1. Being forced to race with novice drivers.
> > > > [Per number 2 above, having novice drivers interfere with the
racing.
> > > > Racing against novices is not always fun....its also not "racing"
for
> an
> > > > experienced driver since he has no feelings of accomplishment in
> winning
> > > or
> > > > beating a novice driver. In fact, its called "teaching".....not
> > racing.]

> > > > **What Could Be Added To The RASCAR Format To Accomplish The Fun
(and
> > > avoid
> > > > the not fun)?**

> > > > 1. Hold two RASCAR races on Saturday, back to back (not at the same
> > > > time -:).....).

> > > > 2. Make one of them a "pro or experienced-drivers-only" race....the
> > other
> > > a
> > > > "novice" or open race (as the RASCAR races are now).

> > > > 3. Make the "pro" race an invitation only event.
> > > > [On the driver registration area at RSC, allow a driver to make an
> entry
> > > > that says he wants to be invited to the "pro" races, and thus
require
> > > > his/her email address to be included in the driver registration. On
> > > > Wednesday or Thursday of each week there is to be a RASCAR race,
> someone
> > > who
> > > > is appointed in advance to do this function, decides who will be
> > "invited"
> > > > to the pro race on Saturday, makes a 'post' on r.a.s. with a list of
> the
> > > > names, and sends (via private email) the unique PW for the race that
> > > coming
> > > > weekend. The "drivers" invited can RSVP for the race that weekend,
by
> > > > virtue of making a post in the string of the invite post. As the
> > weekend
> > > > approaches, additional drives can be invited if there is not a full
> > field
> > > of
> > > > RSVP's developing for that coming race. The position of making up
the
> > > > weekly "pro race" invite list can be totally volunteer....with say a
> > > > requirement that you do it for say two months....then the next
person
> > > takes
> > > > over the job for only two months...and so on. Its not a huge "time
> > > > consuming" thing to do once a week...for about 8 times.

> > > > 4. Make the "novice" race an open invitation race (open to all who
> > visit
> > > > r.a.s. and know the "standing pw" for the novice race).

> > > > 5. Make the "novice" race open to any "experienced driver" who
wants
> to
> > > run
> > > > in it as well....or maybe many times some of the drivers invited to
> the
> > > > "pro" race can't make it because of their schedule.......but can
make
> > the
> > > > "novice" race time slot. Encourage the experienced drivers to run
in
> > the
> > > > "novice" race as often as they can.....to help the novice drivers
gain
> > > > experience. This also allows the "experienced" drivers a chance to
> view
> > > and
> > > > observe the novice drivers, too......and see first hand who is
running
> > > > well....and maybe deserving of a "provisional invitation" to the pro
> > race.
> > > > No?

> > > > There are advantages and disadvantages to the system described above
> (as
> > I
> > > > see it...others may exist too):

> > > > **Advantages**

> > > > 1. Novice drivers are not interfering with the experienced drivers
> race
> > > > (and fun).
> > > > 2. Experienced drivers can choose which race they want to run
> > > > in.....choosing the novice race when they are in the mood to
> > teach....the
> > > > pro race when they are in the mood to try to kick some butt of one
of
> or
> > > > more of their r.a.s. buddies! They can also choose the novice race
if
> > > they
> > > > are not very experienced at the track being run that weekend.
> > > > 3. Novice drivers have a more relaxed racing atmosphere since they
> are
> > > not
> > > > under pressure to avoid screwing up somebody's race with their
rookie
> > > > mistakes. This makes for a much better learning environment as
well,
> > > IMHO.
> > > > You'd probably get many more novice drivers to participate....and
that
> > > would
> > > > be good for sim racing.
> > > > 4. Everyone who visits r.a.s. can still get to race each
> > > other......you've
> > > > just got the added opportunity/benefit to choose which way you want
to
> > do
> > > > it.
> > > > 5. If someone on the "pro" race invite list is not deserving to
> remain
> > on
> > > > that list because of their on-track actual performance, their name
can
> > > > quietly be dropped from the list and no big public deal is made of
it.
> > > > 6. A quasi-award system is in place, to encourage novice drivers to
> > > > practice and get better. When I was a novice driver, I would have
> > thought
> > > > it was cool to do well enough to ***earn*** and invitation to the
pro
> > > race!
> > > > Way cool....as a matter of fact.
> > > > 7. This system is flexible enough by its "open architecture" that
as
> > new
> > > > people visiting r.a.s., they can easily participate by simply
> > registering
> > > > their info and car at the RASCAR site....and indicating if they want
a
> > pro
> > > > race invite by additionally giving their email address.

> > > > **Disadvantages**

> > > > 1. It would require slightly more "administration" of the RASCAR
race
> > on
> > > > Saturday....but not much more, for the huge benefit it would give
> > (IMHO).
> > > > In also MHO, if a minimum amount of administration isn't forthcoming
> > > > (handling the driver registration and car sets in a timely manner,
> > writing
> > > > the pro race invite list weekly, and operating the race server on
> > > > Saturday)....then this RASCAR thing will die off anyway. That would
> be
> > a
> > > > shame.

> > > > So, what do you guys think? Are there more "advantages" you can
think
> > of?
> > > > Are there more "disadvantages?" What's your vote? Are your for
this
> or
> > > > against it? Let's go with the consensus....and move on.

> > > > TP

...

read more »

by **Don Burnett** » Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:57:43

I vote no as well, although I have only made a couple of races and perhaps
my vote should not count. I think the format is great, and being open to
newer drivers is a great help for them - not many leagues these days cater
to , or help, newer folks to online racing. It is nice to see a racing forum
where newer folks are welcome, they can learn a lot from the more veteran
drivers and may in fact be a primary reason they decide to stick with online
racing rather than throwing up their hands and quitting for good.

I'm not sure I understand why 1 guy makes 1 race then all of a sudden
everyone has to make a decision and vote on invite only? Or perhaps this
was already in the works, I haven't been around as much lately.

I've been going through some major life changes the last 5-6 months,
hopefully things will settle down soon and I will be able to be more of a
regular with you guys.

Don Burnette

"Mike Grandy" <mgran...@nycap.rr.com> wrote in message

news:XEC59.110131$8M1.22959340@twister.nyroc.rr.com...

> --
> Mike Grandy
> www.precision-racing.com
> "Tom Pabst" <tmpa...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:yoB59.65106$UU1.11865@sccrnsc03...
> > Okay...let's separate out all the crap and get to the point.