rec.autos.simulators

What's it going to take for GT Interactive to produce a really great
simulation based on the Indy 500 and the Indy Racing League?  With
great sims like Viper Racing and Grand Prix Legends already on the
market, and promising sims like EA's Sports Car GT coming out soon,
what should GT Interactive be shooting for in terms of features,
operating modes, and such?  

Let's all assume up-front that it's a given that they need to come up
with decent 3D graphics and a good physics model -- INCLUDING a decent
damage model as well, so that goes unsaid, but what are you seeing in
the latest crop of sims that you feel are "must-have" features that GT
Interactive needs to include in an Indy/IRL sim?  I'm talking about
features like the ability to choose between Career Mode and Quick Race
mode, the ability to fine-tune your controls (steering, brake, and
throttle), adjustable difficulty settings (beginner, intermediate,
expert -- or arcade, intermediate, and sim), adjustable AI skill
levels, etc.  

These are a *few* of the features that I've seen in Viper Racing, GPL,
and SCGT that I think are must-haves for any future sims -- but what
do the REST of you think?  What I'm trying to figure out is what it's
going to take to create a sim based on the Indy 500 and the Indy
Racing League that will make oval track sim racing fans forget about
NASCAR 2 / NASCAR 99/ NASCAR 2000 long enough to discover that you
don't need fenders and doors to race on an oval? <G>

The game companies DO pay attention to the newsgroups -- so let's let
'em know what we want.  Better to let them know before they get too
far along, because it's always easier to do it right the first time
than it is to rely on a future patch to cure a bad sim.  And I for one
would like enjoy some simulated IRL action on a better platform than
what ABC Interactive gave us with their ABC Road To Indy sim (talk
about a game in dire need of a patch!).

So, let's hear what YOU have to say . . .

-- John Bodin
   Publisher, The IRL Insider Magazine
   http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Here's an open message to every software development company :)

Another time...

Does GTI want to focus on the small and difficult to aim  hard-core
simracing market or they want to focus on the big and easy to please
arcade-style market ?

Im not really sure that a company can create a decent game engine for
graphics/physics/damage on their first title.  Especially when it's their
first attempt.  I never really saw a company do this.  MGI had ex-Papyrus
employees, Codemaster had some problems with Toca (no damage model, canned
physics).  Ubisoft is still with their old POD game engine, etc..

Why do they need us to tell what we want ? They should easily be able to
find this no ? We want everything the MOST realistic possible.

First of all, let me be the first to say that even if the IRL has an "good"
game engine, it will be a fl?p.  I can't see the mass *** market buy such
a title.  They seriously don't give an arse (sorry but it's true) about a
league 90% of them never heard of, racing on a limited # of tracks.

Your loosing the primary market for even hard-core sim. Because even for
hard-core sims, their main market IS the  mass *** market. Not the
hard-core.

I don't think there is a way.  The Papyrus new game engine is soo ahead of
everybody that at the moment they are untouchable for the next 1-2years.
Everything other companies are telling is vaporware (Trans-Am Racing,
Rally99, Gp3, etc..).

I mean, Im sorry but there's just not enough depth in an IRL sim to please
hard core and mass *** market.  There's a too limited number of tracks,
with most of them being similar "D-shaped ovals".  The only thing that could
help them is to focus on Indianapolis.

But the mass gamers will start now to associate the Indianapolis Motor
Speedway to Nascar and F1, not IRL....  it's just a reality of what
happened.

I would enjoy, but let's see... if they are asking us now, that means they
haven't started yet.  If they want a SERIOUS hard-core sim that <cough>
would be as good as the Papyrus game engine, it will be out in about 2years
(I can't see any R&D for a serious game engine in less time than this). By
this time, F1 will be at Indy.  Maybe they should do this instead <g>.   But
as I probably thnk, they will have a limited budget, crew and time, so it
will be shipped fast, with a arcade game engine, and many bugs.  Not that I
say they can't do a good job. But it's just a reality of the "first title"
companies.

Unless they take the game engine from the DRIVER team ;)

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank>
-- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.racesimcentral.net/
-- SimRacing Online http://www.racesimcentral.net/
-- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
-- May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Dan Belcher
Team Racing Unlimited

Chris

Keep in mind that GT Interactive is currently responsible for
Powerslide (not much of a sim from what I've heard, but a fairly
highly-acclaimed fantasy racing title), and they're also responsible
for the upcoming Trans Am sim.  If the Trans Am sim turns out to have
a decent physics model, it *could* be the basis for any future sims
(including IRL and Indy 500 sims), in much the same way that Papyrus
used the Indycar2 game as the basis for the original NASCAR Racing
sim.  (Yeah, I know, the Trans Am title is just vaporware at this
point . . .)

Also, GT Interactive is a publisher, not a developer per se --
publishers rely on game developers like MGI (the folks who did Viper
Racing) and EAI (the people who are developing Trans Am Racing) to do
the actual game development.  

FWIW, the folks at MGI aren't working on anything at the moment as far
as I know, and any company looking for a game developer for a racing
sim could do far worse, don't you think?

-- JB

   YMenard makes a good point regarding targeting arcade versus
*** simulation.  If you want a popular hit, and you don't want to
take forever developing it, go the arcade route.  Of course, that
isn't what I or a large number of the readers of the newsgroup or
perhaps even yourself want them to produce, but that's the reality of
the market.  Lowest common denominator, y'know...  Part of the problem
of displacing a NASCAR sim.

<And I managed to do that and not say anything *** about you know
who and you know what :>

"But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was
nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into
a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark

Not a great loss, though, is it?

:-) !
Graeme Nash

http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk
ICQ# 11257824
________________________________________________________________________________
                "I liked things better when I didn't understand them"

                                (Calvin & Hobbes)

  1.  Get the Controller issue nailed down.  Thrustmaster dang near
invented the PC wheel market, but most of their older wheels are not
100% Win95/98 friendly.   also TEST TEST TEST as many different
wheels as possible.  Force Feedback etc.   This comes from
knowing your target audience.  You have 3 kinds I would think.   The Avg
computer user who barely knows how to turn it on, he probably has a gamepad
that came with the system.  Thats ok.   I would think the next level would
be the
semi serious users.   These are folks with some sort of wheel and a pretty
good knowledge on how to set them up.  The last group would be the ultra
serious users who spend thousands on wheels, soundcards, video cards etc.
   The single biggest mistake you can make is to shoot for the lowest common
denominator,  can put out "deer hunter" style mass market driving product,
but even
if you sell tons of them initially, your word of mouth reputation will be so
poor that any
other attempts at the genre will almost certainly be doomed.
  2.  The 2nd biggie is Don't promote and promise things the sim can't
deliver.  EA Sports
has a very bad reputation around here from the marketing of Nascar
Revolution.    If EA Sports
put out something that made GPL seem like a kids toy...they STILL wouldn't
get any respect.
kinda goes back to the first point.  If you do go low...say so..don't tell
folks your reaching for
the stars with a sim and then sell something that barely clears the weeds.
3.  For a sim to suceed is DOES NOT need multiplayer.  However...for a sim
to be well
recieved and to have repeat sales of a product line and good word of mouth
it MUST have
multiplayer capibilities.  The bar here is getting higher and higher.  If
you try and sell a product
that allows jerky head to head play without at least  the ability to add
many users...you are in
trouble.  Once again GPL sets a technical standard.   Even 8 player
capabilty would be acceptable
if DONE RIGHT.
4.  You do not have to ape every feature of physics that GPL has.  Creating
a sim that is "fun" while
also believable does not mean it absolutely must be on par with GPL.    Look
at new titles like
Toca 2 and SCGT.  Certainly not the struggle to drive as GPL is but fairly
well received.
5.  Notice I haven't compared anything to products like Need For Speed.
Once again, you
asked about a "simulation,"  If you really want to produce a Sim, strive for
that...NFS is great
fun but it most certainly is NOT a sim.    This ties in with the above, if
you want a NFS feel or
style, then you'd better let folks know early that ARCADE is the target, not
SIMULATION.  The
vocal few will crucify you and your sales will be stillborn.
5.  More hardware.  Video cards are rapidly advancing, so are soundcards.
Provide the resouces
to your developers so that the product is not only near the cutting edge,
but COMPATIBLE with
many different formats.  There are several key boards to shoot for....The
Nvidia line AND the 3dfx
line should be considered, and made rock solid BEFORE the product is
shipped.  3d sound
and the like are a rapidly growing area..get your Vortex2 and EAX issues
found, fixed and delivered
BEFORE you give a shipping greenlight.
  Any more questions?  :)
dave henrie

Depending on the budget, they can not test every conceivable combination of
equipment.

Thats the marketing department, which as everyone knows in every facet of
life the marketing folks are always over hyping things.  If EA or EA Sports
came out with a good racing game taht put GPL to shame, sure they'd get my
respect for doing that.

I would tend to disagree on both points.  it does need multiplayer to
succeed, and it does need more than 8 player capability.  But that
multiplayer can't be like SCGT where they only officially support or even
seem to care about is the LAN based (I have a LAN, but most people
dont..they race on the internet for multiplayer)...your game is not going to
be as well received otherwise.

Toca2 and SCGT have been well received?  MMs... I must have missed those
posts.

Again, you have budgets to deal with.