rec.autos.simulators

by **Ronald Stoe** » Tue, 06 May 1997 04:00:00

> > >I don't have a Rendition card, so if they don't support the use of
> > >Rendition on TEN, I'll appreciate the levelling of the playing field
> > >somewhat.

> > How does someone who is running a Rendition card have an advantage over you
> > while racing on-line? I have two systems here, one with and one without a
> > Rendition. When running multiplayer, the only difference I see is the
> > Rendition is clearer.

> > Just asking.....

> > Robert

> If you system is setup and running properly it should also have about a
> 10fps speed improvement. This should make the game easier to drive
> consistent lines with because it gives you more time to react to the
> environment. The advantage won't guarantee a win but it is a definite
> advantage.

> Dana Bailes

Wait a minute! So they should limit access to NRO to people having
a, let's see, a Pentium 90? Because these snobs with MMX P200s are
having a big advantage in fps!!??

Back to reality...

l8er
ronny

by **Tom Pelu** » Wed, 07 May 1997 04:00:00

But the video card is not the only way to improve framerates,so their
is no argument

by **motisk** » Wed, 07 May 1997 04:00:00

> Yes. The same driver will get slightly better lap times on a faster system
> (whether due to the processor or videocard). The smoother the input from
> the controller, the faster you will be able to go. The same would hold
> true for wheels vs. joysticks, though in the original unpatched version of
> N1 a joystick was faster due to the digital (either on or off) gas and
> brake.

> --

> >Wouldn't that argument hold true for someone with a P-200 vs P-90.

> >Where would you draw the line?

> >If you bought it, you can use it.

So how will this advantage be diff from real cup racing? The teams that
have more money and can afford the parts will run better. where as the
guys who dont just have to do there best. I know when I ran my p75 on
hawaii i was beating guys with p166 i just turned my graphics down until
i had a good frame rate....
--
--------------------------------------------------------
Brian Motisko

http://members.aol.com/bmotisko/private/index.htm
--------------------------------------------------------

by **John Wallac** » Wed, 07 May 1997 04:00:00

Yes, and if you have a P-90 and I have my P-225MMX then I have an advantage
over you.

The Rendition changes nothing in terms of the equality of racing, those
with more money get more CPU horsepower, and that allows them to run more
detail. As we all know frame-rate is vital for sim-racing, so turn off
those textures, turn down the cars on-screen, even drop down to VGA if
necessary and regain the control you need.

If anything the Rendition cards make the playing field MORE level. Before
these were availble you would need a new CPU and motherboard at several
hundred dollars. Now a $149 card gets you all the performance you need.

Sounds pretty fair to me.
--
Cheers!
John (SRN-Europe)
(Remove "NOSPAM" from address before replying...)

by **Dana Baile** » Wed, 07 May 1997 04:00:00

> > On Mon, 05 May 1997 16:02:25 -0400, "Paul Carillon Jr."

> > >> > > >I don't have a Rendition card, so if they don't support the use of
> > >> > > >Rendition on TEN, I'll appreciate the levelling of the playing field
> > >> > > >somewhat.

> > >> > If you system is setup and running properly it should also have about a
> > >> > 10fps speed improvement. This should make the game easier to drive
> > >> > consistent lines with because it gives you more time to react to the
> > >> > environment. The advantage won't guarantee a win but it is a definite
> > >> > advantage.

> > >> > Dana Bailes

> > >Guys you are making a big deal out of nothing.The videos cards give no
> > >advantage to anyone only how the Game looks when running.They give no
> > >preformaance enhancements.

> > >Paul

> > One person says a Rendition card increases the frame rate, another
> > says it provides no performance enhancements. Which is true?

> > For the record, it doesn't really matter to me whether Rendition cards
> > are supported or not. However, what I meant by the statement above is
> > that when I'm racing someone that is pretty even with me, one tenth of
> > a second each lap would be significant. My impression about Rendition
> > cards is with the increased frame rate you could very easily improve
> > your lap times by that amount or more since you have a better frame
> > rate.

> > Kyle Langston

> Ok agreed there Kyle becuase i gained speed by going from a Tseng 1 mg
> card to a Velocity 3d w/4mg but I still believe as long as your computer
> is fast enough the card will be irrevialant.

> Just my opinion

> Paul

So how fast does your computer have to be? You must have 200mhz or
better. The only thing I've seen that could sustain 30fps at full
detail w/o Rendition was a PPro200. Most people don't have this. The
sad thing is a P133 with a Rendition card runs smoother and looks much
better. Most people would rather take this route. If you think a
faster processor is a match for a Rendition card you must not have seen
a Rendition card in action, there is no comparison. High performance 3D
hardware is the future of ***, not faster processors.

Dana Bailes

by **Michael E. Carve** » Wed, 07 May 1997 04:00:00

: One person says a Rendition card increases the frame rate, another
: says it provides no performance enhancements. Which is true?

: For the record, it doesn't really matter to me whether Rendition cards
: are supported or not. However, what I meant by the statement above is
: that when I'm racing someone that is pretty even with me, one tenth of
: a second each lap would be significant. My impression about Rendition
: cards is with the increased frame rate you could very easily improve
: your lap times by that amount or more since you have a better frame
: rate.

I think that your impression is correct, Kyle. Any enhancement of frame
rate "should" translate to enhanced performance on the track. So,
someone running with a system chugging along at 14-18 fps is a a
disadvatage to someone flying at 28-30 fps.

Gotta keep in mind that Rendition video cards aren't the only way to up
ones frame rates. Running less detail, using the fastest CPU's, running
in low-res. One would like to think that the playing field is evened
out abit by the process of NRO/multi-player structure. This includes
latency and the fact that the server is doing the work of keeping track
of the cars.

But, no matter how you look at it, there will always be ways to find
the "racer's edge". Better game controllor card/steering combos for
example. And since it's going to be competition, you know people will
be looking for that extra edge.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

by **David Spark** » Wed, 07 May 1997 04:00:00

Absolutely. And you can get that frame rate by giving up detail. I don't
know about you, but I don't have much time to admire the clouds and trees
when I'm flying down the front straight of Michigan at 200 MPH. So turn
some of the eye candy off. For Hawaii races, I have all detail turned off
except skid marks and car textures.

Just like the real thing. Look at the top teams, like Yates and Hendricks.
They have sophisticated dynos for tuning up engines, portable shock
dynamometers, and spend a lot of money testing in wind tunnels and on the
track. Then you've got guys like Dave Marcis, who sells s***so he can
keep doing what he loves to do.

NROS is going to be a big series, with lots of room for competitors at
every level.

Dave Sparks
IWCCCARS Project: http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Late Night League: http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Hawaii Handle: davids

by **Dana Baile** » Wed, 07 May 1997 04:00:00

> > > >I don't have a Rendition card, so if they don't support the use of
> > > >Rendition on TEN, I'll appreciate the levelling of the playing field
> > > >somewhat.

> > > How does someone who is running a Rendition card have an advantage over you
> > > while racing on-line? I have two systems here, one with and one without a
> > > Rendition. When running multiplayer, the only difference I see is the
> > > Rendition is clearer.

> > > Just asking.....

> > > Robert

> > If you system is setup and running properly it should also have about a
> > 10fps speed improvement. This should make the game easier to drive
> > consistent lines with because it gives you more time to react to the
> > environment. The advantage won't guarantee a win but it is a definite
> > advantage.

> > Dana Bailes

> Wait a minute! So they should limit access to NRO to people having
> a, let's see, a Pentium 90? Because these snobs with MMX P200s are
> having a big advantage in fps!!??

> Back to reality...

> l8er
> ronny

If you can't afford the cost of admission you will have to stay home.
This is racing we are talking about, speed costs money.

A P133 with a Rendition card will give you more than enough performance
to be competitive on any level with the current software. Such a system
is far from state of the art.

Dana

by **Mike Grand** » Wed, 07 May 1997 04:00:00

Gotta agree with you Dave. Most any pentium with the detail turned down
will produce sufficient frame rates with a decent videocard. I've used a
Packard Bell P75 with a 2 meg card and run almost as smooth and most
definately as fast, times wise, as a 200MMX. I have tested on many
different machines and have found myself to be quicker on the machines
with less horsepower. When I run on Hawaii I turn off most of the
graphics also. othing worse than being distracted by an irate fan.

I know if I called Nascar and said that my car would only do certain
speeds and would like them to slow the competition down so I can be
competative they would laugh at me. Just my opinion.

> >I think that your impression is correct, Kyle. Any enhancement of frame
> >rate "should" translate to enhanced performance on the track. So,
> >someone running with a system chugging along at 14-18 fps is a a
> >disadvatage to someone flying at 28-30 fps.

> Absolutely. And you can get that frame rate by giving up detail. I don't
> know about you, but I don't have much time to admire the clouds and trees
> when I'm flying down the front straight of Michigan at 200 MPH. So turn
> some of the eye candy off. For Hawaii races, I have all detail turned off
> except skid marks and car textures.

> >But, no matter how you look at it, there will always be ways to find
> >the "racer's edge". Better game controllor card/steering combos for
> >example. And since it's going to be competition, you know people will
> >be looking for that extra edge.

> Just like the real thing. Look at the top teams, like Yates and Hendricks.
> They have sophisticated dynos for tuning up engines, portable shock
> dynamometers, and spend a lot of money testing in wind tunnels and on the
> track. Then you've got guys like Dave Marcis, who sells s***so he can
> keep doing what he loves to do.

> NROS is going to be a big series, with lots of room for competitors at
> every level.

> Dave Sparks
> IWCCCARS Project: http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> Late Night League: http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> Hawaii Handle: davids

by **Eric T. Busc** » Wed, 07 May 1997 04:00:00

Exactly. My point was just that higher framerates lead to faster times.
How you achieve these framerates really does't matter.

--

s.concentric.net>...

by **Don Scurlo** » Wed, 07 May 1997 04:00:00

>Subject: Re: Ten the Nro and Rendition cards
>Date: 6 May 1997 14:12:59 GMT
>Gotta keep in mind that Rendition video cards aren't the only way to up
>ones frame rates. Running less detail, using the fastest CPU's, running
>in low-res.
>But, no matter how you look at it, there will always be ways to find
>the "racer's edge". Better game controllor card/steering combos for
>example. And since it's going to be competition, you know people will
>be looking for that extra edge.

Frame rate is extremely important, but for a given frame rate the guy with
the most detail still has an advantage. In real life or in a sim, picking
your turn-in point and your apex is the hardest part of high speed driving,
and the driver with the most detail is going to have a better sense of where
he is and therefore an easier time of it. It's more than just eye candy.
Don Scurlock
Vancouver, B.C.

by **Robert Johnso** » Wed, 07 May 1997 04:00:00

Where is it written that to particapate in the NRO that you have to run
with the graphics set to max. From what I can see, here, in my home, on my
systems, a P-120 with the asphalt / grass turned off in SVGA is just as
smooth as my P-200 with everything on in Rendition mode. It isn't as
pretty, but I am not looking at the scenery, I am driving the car.

by **Ed Medli** » Thu, 08 May 1997 04:00:00

Actually, I do run a p90 with a Diamond Stealth w 2megs, and get a very
good frame rate. Speed of the processor has little to do with frame rate.
It is available ram on the video card that has more to do with the frame
rate. My card is not a rendition card, but is still fast enough to get 25
or better fps with just a few of the details off. I cannot use the
texture/grass setting, but other than a few exceptions(night race at
Bristol) I can run very acceptable rates with most details on. A 486/66
will run good frame rates with a decent video card. I plan on getting a
rendition card, but to upgrade my processor would be overkill, because it
really won't help frame rates at all.

by **Robert Johnso** » Thu, 08 May 1997 04:00:00

What does the following contribute to my sense of where I am on the track:

1. Asphalt / Grass textures ( F1 )
2. Clouds in the sky ( F2 )
3. High detail grandstands ( F3 )
4. Fans in the grandstand ( F4 )
5. The trees in the horizion ( F6 )
6. Highly detailed cars ( F7 )
7. Smoke / dust ( F8 )
8. 39 cars in front / behind / around me

Turn these off, and pick your turn-in point from what is left.

Robert

by **Michael Barnet** » Thu, 08 May 1997 04:00:00

Isn't it true that you can not run renddma or nasrend from windows95? With
this in mind then all the advantage, if there really is any, would be a
moot point since the NRO looks like it will have to be run from windows.

Michael