rec.autos.simulators

Excellent post just wish that Microprose would respond to it. I mean I
have the sim running very well but at times the occupancy is hovering
around 70% and to think Im losing some detail is very bad. Really
Geoff may be brilliant but he sure does it his way. Wonder if he gets
out often, ya know to see whats going on in the world of graphics.

Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand

It really disturbs me that Microprose and/or Geoff Crammond are so far
removed from the current user-base that they don't know that most of us
either use UnivBE/SDD or have VESA 2.0 compliant video cards.

GP2 uses a BANKED SVGA mode, one intended for use with 16bit software.  
The screen is broken up into 64k chunks so that 16bit hardware (AX,BX,etc
registers only) could access the entire screen.  Switching between these
banks is very time consuming.

GP2 is a 32bit game.  It uses DOS4GW (Rational's DOS extender).  Machines
with 32bit hardware are capable of accessing the complete screen because
their registers exceed 64k (duh).  

So, why does GP2 not use a linear frame buffer (ie non-banked video mode)?
does microprose think that nobody has hardware or software to work this way?
It doesn't make sense.  The main reason this game is so slow in SVGA in
comparison to ICR2 (which i never liked, feels like ice skating), is
because ICR2 uses a linkable-UniVBE library, available from SciTech
Software for developers.  It doesnt even require you to load UniVBE, it
is included in their INDYCAR.EXE.  

Why can't microprose do this?  

I think microprose made some hard-headed/living in the past decisions
regarding this game.

The fact that the game still works like F1GP1 in its frame rate routines
really irritates me.  Processor occupancy times?  Time-twisting?  
Whatever happened to synching to the timer or vblank?  Whatever happened
to dropping frames when the computer cannot keep up?  

The current system sucks.  You set your frame rate for a worst case
scenerio.  Then you spend the rest of the time wasting your CPU, running
at 56% just because you think that maybe you'll be racing and 5 cars in
front of you will hit a sandtrap.  Its stupid.  It should run as many FPS
as it can, and drop frames.  that way we'd have SMOOTH gameplay, lots of
FPS, and drop frames when it cant handle it WITHOUT warping time.  
Occupancy ALWAYS automatically at 100%, unless you exceed the VBLANK rate
(typically 70hz or 72hz for SVGA).

Yes, i can live with not having rain.  I can live with all the other
things they've left out or not done right.  But on a TECHNICAL level, GP2
is way behind the times.  I want more video modes, I want to be able to
select 360x480 if I want to.  I want support for VESA 2.0 LFB modes.  
Banking is for 286's.  Most of all I want a proper FPS algorithm, not
this rehash from 1992.

Sure the graphic engine is impressive but the way it goes from it's
internal idea of what the display should be to actually delivering the
display is obselete.  (anybody notice that 320x200 is not aspect-ratio
compensated? (640x480 is 1:1, 320x200 is 1:1.1 i believe)  Things are
rather vertically stretched, which makes the VGA mode look HORRIBLE. (gp1
looks better in vga)

Now, anyone know how to add a clutch to my T1 (limited edition)? :)

I've already deleted my indycar directory and put its box away for
storage. :)  This thing drives like a dream.

--
-------
Carlos Ribas
President
MalSoft
http://www.nol.net/~draconis

:
: Excellent post just wish that Microprose would respond to it. I mean I
Yeh, my dream situation would be to have a microprose rep reply to my
post with "yes, we know, a patch is coming out this week" but i doubt it
will ever happen.

: have the sim running very well but at times the occupancy is hovering
: around 70% and to think Im losing some detail is very bad. Really
: Geoff may be brilliant but he sure does it his way. Wonder if he gets
: out often, ya know to see whats going on in the world of graphics.
yeh, he should go hang out with micheal abrash and john carmack for a few
days...

-carlos

Very informative post we need more of them.
About the clutch: a cat from New Zealand (I forget his name) has a setup he
made that includes a swithched clutch which he was kind enough to furnish me
with a diagram for. I would imagine it would not be to difficult to make it
analog. Fitting it in with your pedal unit might be somewhat of a challenge
though. If you want it e-mail me and I will send it.

That's what it looks like. Maybe the graphics engine was written very early
on and Geoff didn't have time to change this. But more than 2 years
developing...??

No wonder Gp2's graphics performance stinks on my P6 200MHz. Every other
game I have that's graphics intensive runs really well with many textures
on, like ICR2, NASCAR, AH-64D Longbow...

It makes even less sense considering the minimum hardware requirements.

My sentiments exactly.
IMO, ICR2 and NASCAR's way of handling excessive processor loads is
superior than GP2. Having to exit and enter a race to adjust texture level
and target frame rate many times just to get a worst case of 100% Processor
occupancy at a track is really pitiful! What's worse is that each track is
different and you'll have to do this for each track.

So can I!

Yup, like paintkit, network play, etc...  It's funny that the artists that
worked on Monaco seemed to have wasted their time with all the textures and
extact detail of the objects in Monaco when nobody can run with it on
without having your processor occupancy sky rocket in certain parts of the
track during a race.

I'm sure LFB mode would make a HUGE improvement on a P6 as NASCAR did on
mine.

Maybe John Wallace can pass this on to the developers for consideration on
their update/patch
.

===========================================================
Alex Fernandez
MTS
Lucent Technologies
No. Andover, MA
email:

tel: (508)960-6510
===========================================================

OK, I FINALLY got my copy of GP2 today, and love it. However, after using
it for a few hours, it does have distinctive similarities to GP1.

How much would it take to redo the video code for this 32-bit video
support, as opposed to the current and inefficient 16-bit stuff? Is this
something that a patch could be designed to fix or does this require a
substantial rewrite?

I would love to have the video portion optimized first, then the other
bells and whistles...

All in all, it brings back memories when my 386/33 was a beast, and could
run the game descently. Now with a P133, I can do SVGA, but not as good
as it theoretically should...

 Thanks,

Ralph.

--

Ralph Schwarz,

Toronto, Canada.

Interesting post.

That's as I thought.  I wasn't going to post until testing this (ie, setting a
very low framerate, getting the low PO, and still seing low framerate).  If it
is as you say (and I have little doubt), this code needs to be seriously
rethought. I have by no means given up on the game, but this is a serious flaw
to me.

How about you do so too!  (But if I may be so bold, a few less "sucks" may be
better received :-))

Dave

Someone could come up with a new 'sky' routine (I just can't believe how
inefficient that code must be!), someone else can figure out how to turn
off the real-time (sometimes) gouraud shading on the cars. I mean, how
many people actually notice the 'sunlight glinting of metalwork' effect?
I had to sit back and look for it - it's there and it adds nothing to
the game (IMHO) except slow it down.

Rob.

[snip]
: How much would it take to redo the video code for this 32-bit video
: support, as opposed to the current and inefficient 16-bit stuff? Is this
: something that a patch could be designed to fix or does this require a
: substantial rewrite?
:  
: I would love to have the video portion optimized first, then the other
: bells and whistles...
:  
[snip]

I thought that this was one of the reasons this game was sooooooooooo
late in coming out.  They were working on optimizing the code so it
would run faster!  Sometimes in programming, it wiser to "toss" the
offending code and start from scratch.  Maybe, they should just toss
this bad code and start from scratch?  It looks like they got all the
*** they're gonna get out of this turnip!

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

: >>
: >>GP2 uses a BANKED SVGA mode, one intended for use with 16bit software.  
: >>The screen is broken up into 64k chunks so that 16bit hardware (AX,BX,etc
: >>registers only) could access the entire screen.  Switching between these
: >>banks is very time consuming.
: >
:
: OK, I FINALLY got my copy of GP2 today, and love it. However, after using
: it for a few hours, it does have distinctive similarities to GP1.
:  
: How much would it take to redo the video code for this 32-bit video
: support, as opposed to the current and inefficient 16-bit stuff? Is this
: something that a patch could be designed to fix or does this require a
: substantial rewrite?
that depends on how the game is currently coded.  I would think it
wouldn't be very hard as i have converted some of my code in the past from
banked to LFB and all it took was removing the calls to change banks, and
changing to a diff vid mode at start.

: I would love to have the video portion optimized first, then the other
: bells and whistles...
yes, i so desperately want LFB video and a CORRECT fps/time algorithm.

:  
: All in all, it brings back memories when my 386/33 was a beast, and could
: run the game descently. Now with a P133, I can do SVGA, but not as good
: as it theoretically should...
it looks to me like a lot of gp2's code is actually gp1's code
rehashed... maybe not but it has that feel.

:  Thanks,
:
: Ralph.

-------
Carlos Ribas
President
MalSoft
http://www.nol.net/~draconis

[snip]
: yes, i so desperately want LFB video and a CORRECT fps/time algorithm.
[snip]

What I find interesting is the following "text" found in GP2.EXE:
        Vesa Extensions using 32 bit linear buffering
        with 32 bit banking

Is this just like the "weather" thing?  They couldn't get it to work so
they just packaged it up and sent it on its merry way.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

: [snip]
: : yes, i so desperately want LFB video and a CORRECT fps/time algorithm.
: [snip]
:
: What I find interesting is the following "text" found in GP2.EXE:
:         Vesa Extensions using 32 bit linear buffering
:         with 32 bit banking
:
: Is this just like the "weather" thing?  They couldn't get it to work so
: they just packaged it up and sent it on its merry way.
see my reply to this same thing in another thread... gp2 specifically
does not use the lfb vid mode, at least according to their docs.

(yes)
--
-------
Carlos Ribas
President
MalSoft
http://www.nol.net/~draconis

Are there any avid hackers out there who would be willing to take a
peek at the code, and perhaps enable/disable routines to create a
speed increase?

        -Kevin

P.s. I would be willing to give it a try, but I don't have a
decompiler....

On Fri, 2 Aug 1996 12:12:02 +0300, Miro T Wikgren

Richard

Yes, during qualifying. "MUST COME IN NOW!" comes up when you start
the 12th lap. "TIMES DISQUALIFIED" if you don't return to pits at the
end of that lap.

Nicola Salmoria