rec.autos.simulators

Jim:

What is it with NASCAR and the way it interfaces with control devices???

When I use my standard sound card and its joystick port I run 186's at
Michigan, but
when I run with my ACM game card I run 188's.  The traction seems so
much better
with the ACM card.  When I go back to the Sound Card.. Back to 186's

Don Wilshe

I can assure you there's no "if (Expensive_Control_Card) {traction *= 2

But, a better control calibration could well result in faster lap times.

---Jim

I think the key to fast times might be the RESPONSE TIME of the
control card.  Some pots are fast and some are slow.  The analog
would can do some creepy things...  Digital control cards could
improve it better.  There is some thing in the NASCAR CODE
that allows one to run faster if you have a great graphics rate and
a very fast response on the control side of the system..

Don

Dana Bailes

I DID a balanced statistical experiment comparing my times with a T2
hooked to an AWE32 and then to a CH products gamecard 3.
The population differences were significant and my lap times were
better. I won't bore you with the math :-)

A dedicated controller card does indeed help with faster systems.
I bought the CH because Don recommended it.

Even Pappy HIGHLY recommends using a dedicated card with
the sim.

Regards,

Harry

Could the sound card skip or miss some opportunities to sample your input?
Could the fancy sound card somehow sample with a higher frequency?
Inquiring minds need to know...

<MAJOR snippage>

Any of you guys know of a place I can pick up one of the little ACM
cards?  Like a web site or something?

Thanks...

Andre

<writing on his weekend "to do" list>
Get Acm Game card
Practice practice practice
 :) thanks :)
--
Sit down,Strap in,Shut up,Hang on,Go fast,Turn left,,,Kiss Trophy Girl
GGGGGGgoooo #3,,,31,,,28,,,94,,,6,,,5,,,18,,,8,,,
                                                        Handy^man

Hypothetical number for discussion purposes.

Without an ACM card.  Range: 500-1500
With an ACM card.     Range: 100-300

Lets assume we are talking about a T2 with 270 degrees of turn lock to
lock.
It also has I believe a 10" diameter wheel.

circumference of the wheel is 31.42"

We can only use 3/4 of the rotation, so any given point on the wheel can
move a total of 23.56"

Given your resolution range is 200 units, each unit represents ~1/8" of
movement.

With a range of 1000 units each unit represents ~1/40" of movement.

At some point it is overkill.

As long at the ACM is more then 5x as stable (in this example) then
without the ACM, it doesn't help control the vehicle and better.

It however may be more Win95 friendly.  Lord knows Win95 itself doesn't
reciprocate.

mykey

l8er
ronny

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          |\      _,,,---,,_        I want to die like my Grandfather,
   ZZZzz /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_              in his sleep.
        |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'     Not like the people in his car,
       '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)            screaming their heads off!

On Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:38:25 -0700, Lonnie Andre Ming

Dave Henrie

#99 The Pits Touring Car Championship

% Hypothetical number for discussion purposes.

% Without an ACM card.  Range: 500-1500
% With an ACM card.     Range: 100-300

% Lets assume we are talking about a T2 with 270 degrees of turn lock to
% lock.
% It also has I believe a 10" diameter wheel.

% circumference of the wheel is 31.42"

% We can only use 3/4 of the rotation, so any given point on the wheel can
% move a total of 23.56"

% Given your resolution range is 200 units, each unit represents ~1/8" of
% movement.

% With a range of 1000 units each unit represents ~1/40" of movement.

% At some point it is overkill.

% As long at the ACM is more then 5x as stable (in this example) then
% without the ACM, it doesn't help control the vehicle and better.

% It however may be more Win95 friendly.  Lord knows Win95 itself doesn't
% reciprocate.

Nice theory, but it doesn't work in the real ***/sim world.  Why,
because the software doesn't work that way.  I think the original spec
for the PC gameport called for a range of 0-300.  Alot of the software
still uses this spec when polling the gameport.  However, quality
programs like Papyrus' sims and GP2 try to compensate for this with
their routines.  That is why many people haven't seen a need for a
dedicated game card if they are using a quality programmed sim.  But,
there is still a downside.

The faster the PC the wider the range reported by a non-adjustable
gameport card.  The higher the range the less "exact" the reading will
be.  For the sims to take a range of 0-1000 it must "massage" it back
down to a range somewhere along 0-300.  Therefore the readings are
either "averaged" or some of them are simply tossed out.  Again, if the
joystick routine is written well, the results can be fairly well
translated.  However, the results are not an accurate sampling of the
human's input with the wheel or pedals.  That's where a speed adjustable
gamecard comes into play.  I basically only use my gameport for top
notch sims (NASCAR/NASCAR2, ICR1/ICR2, GP1/GP2).  So for years I never
saw the need to get a dedicated gamecard.  But after upgrading my P5-90
to a P5-166 with a faster motherboard, I began to see a need for
dedicated gamecard.  I got Thrustmaster's ACM card and did find I had
better control of my car in NASCAR2/ICR2/GP2.  Was it enough to turn me
into a Jeff Gordon from a Dave Marcis?  Nope, but it was enough to give
me the precision I needed to gain an edge over my previous times.  I
also found that it was less frustrating when pushing the envelope of the
car's abilities.
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

So what you are saying is the ACM helps out if the software "sucks"?

Actually the bios (atleast those in my computers), and probably other
early joystick methods considers a reading above ~512 to be a timeout
and reports a 0.

N2 has a few different ways of reading the Joystick.
The Pentium method which uses the RTSCD (sp) which reports the exact
clock cycles.
Another method which appears to use the timer normally used for the
onboard speaker.
and finally a call to the Bios.

If your Win95 joystick drivers aren't proper it's possible to end up
using the bios.
I ran into that problem trying to help a friend.

Why?

Less "exact" only applies if the (noise level)/range without the ACM is
larger than for with the ACM.

Again, if your reading bounces back and forth between some point plus or
minus 1 unit with a range of 200 units, and mine bounces back and forth
between some point plus or minus 5 units with a range of 1000 units then
we have the SAME "exactness"

I agree it needs to be massaged, just not to the 0-300, I would think
something more like 0-100% but a unit may not represent 1%. It may be a
0.25% units.

The other word for "massage" would be scaled.

Just because they are massaged doesn't mean that have to be averaged, or
Tossed.

Averaging, or "tossing" implies lowering the effective sample rate.

???

If you put your throttle at 75%, doesn't your method conclude you are
effectivly at 75% (or 225 in your 0-300 range).

I would get a reading of 1250 in my range of 500-1500.

I've got a P5-166, a rendition, and a SB16.
My range is actually something like 300-1300 for the wheel.
The needle bounces about 1-2 units plus or minus.

The factor that is unknown (to us mear mortals) is the resolution of the
physics model.
How many unique steering wheel positions are there considered for
programs like N1, N2, ICR2, etc.

If they happen to scale into a floating point number, the more
resolution of the controller the better.

If you read what Thrustmasters gives as reasons for why the ACM helps it
has to do with problems related to inferior hardware.  i.e. heat
problems.  *IF* ACM helps out for N2, ICR2, etc, it's not because of the
range of the joystick, but because of the Military spec parts used.

Each week I improve over my previous times.  But this is due to Setup
adjustments, and seat time.

When we can finally get a decient online race, we will get a new target
to shoot for.

Fast enough to keep close without burning up the tires hoping to pass
when the other's cars fade.

A lot of probably very correct stuff snipped

The only thing I can add here is; I`m currently testing an ACM-card to
try
and solve my GP1+CHPedals probs in Win95(Thanks to all of you who
replied by mail and to this group), and I have to say that I can drive
much smoooother now, not faster at the moment, because none of my setups
is any good anymore, they`re not bad, but if you get different reactions
from a certain input you need to adjust you setups and/or your driving,
but I have to say that I can drive more consistent now, it doesn`t show
up at tracks like Watkins Glen but at Long Beach(yes I`m in the TPTCC) I
can keep the car off the walls with just inches to spare while driving
flat out, so I guess this would help at ovals too.

So to all my competitors in the TPTCC, look out, I won`t be faster, but
much more consistent :-)

And to those who are wondering; no I still can`t get the blasted things
to work in Win95, so I will not be racing at Kali yet :-(

Beers and cheers
Goy