That's great you were able to improve the FPS and picture quality on
your V5500. However, you are forgetting about the issue of the "file
texture size" limitation of all 3dfx video cards, as does our Mr. Dave
Henry quite often when he is touting the virtues of 3dfx and his V5500
(does he still use that thing?).
**Background**
In pc games (and racing sims are what I consider the high-end of pc
video games) the quality of the screen picture (I call this the "Eye
Candy Factor".....scale of 1-10, where 10 is best) is more dependent
these days on the texture map (mipmapping) and texture file size/color
depth....than on the screen resolution/color depth of your monitor
settings/video cards. Of course, any ECF of "10" is totally useless in
a racing sim if it doesn't provide adequate FPS! So that must always be
the first priority (IMHO)....when deciding on video card settings.
Please don't be fooled into thinking I have much more "technical"
background on this topic than the depth of it I just displayed (stated).
Because I don't, and there are many others on this newsgroup who know
for more about the technical issues than I (perhaps they will contribute
to this string). However, I do have a fairly good "artist's
eye".....and I think my opinion of what looks good and real-world
realistic.... (my ECF scoring ability) is generally accepted by those
people I sim race with here locally (and who's "race boxes" I build for
them). They all use the sim tracks I *assemble* for them.
**GPL - The Big Exception**
99% of the time, we as "users" of pc games and racing sims, can *not* do
anything about the resolution and quality of the game's texture files.
They are created by the game developer, locked up in "packed files" and
not edit-able! But, that is not the case in GPL....is it. If you are a
GPL junkie (and who isn't....if you love sim racing)....the worst video
card you can use these days....is anything from 3dfx (on an otherwise
fast CPU platform, especially). Why is that? Its because a 3dfx video
card can not use polygon-covering texture files above 256x256 pixel
size. In the original GPL released by Papyrus, that was the biggest
texture file anyway.....so it didn't matter. But today......you have an
enormous amount of talented graphic artists and programmers creating
incredible texture files of high resolution....for GPL! Alas....no
matter what the frame rate....a 3dfx video card can not use these files!
Most of the high-res GPL tracks,***pits, wheels and accessories make
use of generous amounts of 512x512, and 512x256 texture files.....which
will crash all 3dfx cards instantly. [Now, I have not used a 3dfx video
card in about six months....so I will admit that if something has
changed recently, or someone has produced some patch or fix for
this.....then I am not aware of it.]
**What You Miss With 3Dfx**
"A picture is worth a thousand words"....and since my reputation on
r.a.s. for long posts is still in force (some would say, in my case, "a
picture is worth 10,000 words"....lol....), I'll just show you the
difference:
This first screen shot is the original Papyrus GPL, original files but
V5500 "tweaked" to the best I knew (a few months back). Take a look:
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
This is not a bad picture...in fact, it was pretty awesome almost three
years ago and Papyrus should be proud for their leading-edge graphics in
GPL (among other things). But, on a 3dfx card, other than improving on
some coloring and textures....that's as good as it gets.
Now, take at look at this screen shot, same place as the one above
(Watkins Glen, main straight....overhead cam)....taken with a GF2 ULTRA
(it looks about the same, slightly better on a GF3) but with high-res
textures:
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Is there really still a question about which video card you should be
using?
Robin, you have a good cpu and *** platform.....a "race car" quality
one, in fact! But, using a 3dfx video card on that platform is like
putting regular fuel in an Audi LMP race car! Not very
productive.....certainly not using the cpu and mobo you've invested in
to any degree of its full capability. GF2-ULTRA (Do not buy anything
less than an ULTRA if you get a GF2 card) and GF3 video cards are all
over the net for the $300 (USD) range. I'm not saying its
"cheap".....but "expensive" is what I call your cpu and mobo....using a
3dfx card on it....what a waste of money and awesome computing power!
If you love GPL.....you simply have to have a GF3 (or GF2-ULTRA) video
card!
I hope this has been helpful to you......so you can see that not
everything is just video card settings, screen res and FSAA related?
Regards,
Tom
PS: I would give the first screen shot of Papy original GPL (using
today's standards) an ECF score of [5]. I would give the second screen
shot an ECF score of [8]. I have never seen an ECF [10]...not yet, at
least! But I have given out several [9.5] scores on some WSC screenies
I've seen!
great graphic upgrade btw...
your comparison is of no sense.
you are comparing graphics tuned to run well on systems with about 150 MHz
to something possible on systems with about 1500 MHz. These (MHz) are just
marketing numbers, real CPU horsepower difference is much (5x, 10x?) higher.
This is about same for GPU horsepower, maybe more, since consumer GPUs where
just in the beginning.
Your *texture size fact* is correct, 3dfx boards are limited. But these are
marketing numbers as well. How does an image of at max 2000x1500 pixels does
need a texture for a single polygon of a simple subobject of 512x512 pixels?
If you would use large polygons of about a quarter of the complete
resolution, than you would be correct.
But this is not state of the art. the trend goes to more, smaller polygons
which just need smaller textures. *More details* comes to my mind...
off course, the larger the textures are, the better *may* be the rendering,
but are you able to see the difference?
I assume No. Only the rendering of the resulting picture would be more
complicated (=horsepower consuming).
*is* there really a difference in the resulting picture, just because of
larger textures?
I'm not sure. We could check each pixels colors while driving by, and
comparing them with the original color which should have been there. But
this would definitely destroy my laptime.
If you are providing the "oversized"(from 3dfx point of view) textures,
anybody with some knowledge in graphic tools would be able to "downsize"
them to the 3dfx limits. And it would be a hard task to distinguish between
the *resulting* pictures.
To state it clear, i will not argue about "3dfx is better" or "geforce is
the best" or something similar, that's not the point, just your comparison,
and the base of it, is nonsense.
I hope this has been helpful as well, it was quite a task being drunk and
logical at the same time ;-)
Joachim
I still run a V5500. Honestly, I've thought about replacing it for a GF2 or
GF3. System is a PIII 1GHZ, 512 meg ram. I can run GPL at 1024x768x16 w/
2xFSAA and get 36 fps at all original papy tracks. Maybe a slight drop at
the end of the field when the flag drops. Some of the addons, I have to drop
down to 800x600. For N4, I run 800x600 w/ 2x FSAA and usually get anywhere
from high 30's to 50's. Thats with 15 cars drawn ahead, 3 behind, world
detail slider set kind of high. I am using 3dfx's 1.04.01 beta drivers with
x3dfx's drivers. Heard people talk about using V6000 drivers for better
results, but haven't tried it myself. In another computer I have a PIII
750MHZ, 256 megs ram, and a Hercules Prophet MX II. I get about the same
performance, but I like the image quality better on my V5. I've set up the
V5 using the tweak guide over at 3dSpotlight.
http://www.3dspotlight.com/tweaks/voodoo5/index.shtml
Anthony
[snip]
This is just wrong imho. The kind of picture quality you need to
get a good sim racing experience depends much more on the resolution
(and resolution enhancements like anti-aliasing) than on the textures.
Why? Because you need to see exactly where the car is on the track
and where the track is going. Quake may look good at 1024x768 without
any anti-aliasing, but to see exactly where a race track turns in
front of you, you need as much resolution as you can get.
Textures are very important for the sence of speed, but not even the
original GPL textures are limiting here because of the 36 Hz frame
rate limitation.
Besides, your high quality picture looks like a very realistic
picture of a 1:18 model car parked on the front lawn. You should
scale down those grass textures to real life sizes to make the
comparison valid.
_
Mats Lofkvist
I've a V5, and no problems using 512x512 textures. Of course, I've to
use the D3D patch in GPL. The fact is that not the V5 itself has a
texturesize limit, but the Glide standard has. (4Mb IIRC). When using
D3D this is not an issue anymore.
Remco
--
Michael A. Barlow
Vice President & Head of Marketing
FILSCA (www.filsca.com)
--snipped a lot of good info for space---
before you go shopping:
Try the new Glen textures posted in the legends central forum,
i doubt you will see any noticeable difference.
this comparison is nonsense because of different starting points.
--
Joachim B?ddeker
Anthony,
I think you and I are on the same page as far as performance goes... I have
read that the V5 scales fairly well with more processor speed and that is
born out in the numbers you have stated in relation to mine. I failed to
mention the settings I am using graphics wise in both sims. GPL has all
graphics maxed out except no drivers arms (I find them distracting) and no
crowds... everything else is fully enabled.
N4 I have "Car Detail" set to "High, "World Detail" set to 75%, "Drawing
Distance Ahead" set to 100%, "In Mirror" set to 15%. I have the "Maximum
Opponents" settings at "Ahead = 12" and "In Mirror = 3".
"Mirror Objects" set to "medium" and "Trackside Objects" set to "some". I
have the "Steering Wheel" setting turned off but all other graphics effects
are enabled.
I use the 1.04.1 3dfx drivers in conjunction with the x3dfx drivers as well.
I have used the tweak guide at 3dSpotlight... printed it out as a matter of
fact and refer to it often. I've never heard of the V6000 drivers. I guess
my 1.2ghz. Athlon is what allows me to run with the same fps you get at the
next higher resolution and still maintaining use of 2X FSAA.
Thanks for the comparisons.
Robin
I purchased a gf 3 some time ago but have never been totally satisfied with
it. I want to put back in my V5. GPL will work fine but N4 is the one I am
concerned about. I thought that it ran better with the GF3. I had to run it
in D3d with the V5. If I could get N4 up to***I would put the card back
in. What drivers would you recommend for the V5? Where can I find them? Any
known tweaks that will help me with N4? I also seen that wicked gl was
recommended at the tweak page. does anyone use that with their v5?
Any info would be appreciated. Miss my voodoo...
Dave Ciemny
Mookytc
> > I still run a V5500. Honestly, I've thought about replacing it for a GF2
> or
> > GF3. System is a PIII 1GHZ, 512 meg ram. I can run GPL at 1024x768x16 w/
> > 2xFSAA and get 36 fps at all original papy tracks. Maybe a slight drop
at
> > the end of the field when the flag drops. Some of the addons, I have to
> drop
> > down to 800x600. For N4, I run 800x600 w/ 2x FSAA and usually get
anywhere
> > from high 30's to 50's. Thats with 15 cars drawn ahead, 3 behind, world
> > detail slider set kind of high. I am using 3dfx's 1.04.01 beta drivers
> with
> > x3dfx's drivers. Heard people talk about using V6000 drivers for better
> > results, but haven't tried it myself. In another computer I have a PIII
> > 750MHZ, 256 megs ram, and a Hercules Prophet MX II. I get about the same
> > performance, but I like the image quality better on my V5. I've set up
the
> > V5 using the tweak guide over at 3dSpotlight.
> > http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> > Anthony
> Anthony,
> I think you and I are on the same page as far as performance goes... I
have
> read that the V5 scales fairly well with more processor speed and that is
> born out in the numbers you have stated in relation to mine. I failed to
> mention the settings I am using graphics wise in both sims. GPL has all
> graphics maxed out except no drivers arms (I find them distracting) and no
> crowds... everything else is fully enabled.
> N4 I have "Car Detail" set to "High, "World Detail" set to 75%, "Drawing
> Distance Ahead" set to 100%, "In Mirror" set to 15%. I have the "Maximum
> Opponents" settings at "Ahead = 12" and "In Mirror = 3".
> "Mirror Objects" set to "medium" and "Trackside Objects" set to "some". I
> have the "Steering Wheel" setting turned off but all other graphics
effects
> are enabled.
> I use the 1.04.1 3dfx drivers in conjunction with the x3dfx drivers as
well.
> I have used the tweak guide at 3dSpotlight... printed it out as a matter
of
> fact and refer to it often. I've never heard of the V6000 drivers. I guess
> my 1.2ghz. Athlon is what allows me to run with the same fps you get at
the
> next higher resolution and still maintaining use of 2X FSAA.
> Thanks for the comparisons.
> Robin
Motherboard Asus K7V, KX133, 5PCI, 0ISA, AGP 4X, ATA66
Athlon CPU AMD Athlon 800MHz, 3DNOW, 512Kcache
CPU Cooler CPU cooler/heatsink for Pentium II/Athlon CPU's
768MB RAM 7 ns, PC133, CAS 2 -133MHz
ATX Midtower 3- 5?" & 5- 3?" (2 open) bays, 300 Watt PS, 2 extra fans
Hard Drive Maxtor 30.7GB Diamondmax Plus 40 9ms 7200RPM ATA66 2M
> I purchased a gf 3 some time ago but have never been totally satisfied
with
> it. I want to put back in my V5. GPL will work fine but N4 is the one I am
> concerned about. I thought that it ran better with the GF3. I had to run
it
> in D3d with the V5. If I could get N4 up to***I would put the card
back
> in. What drivers would you recommend for the V5? Where can I find them?
Any
> known tweaks that will help me with N4? I also seen that wicked gl was
> recommended at the tweak page. does anyone use that with their v5?
> Any info would be appreciated. Miss my voodoo...
> Dave Ciemny
> Mookytc
> > > I still run a V5500. Honestly, I've thought about replacing it for a
GF2
> > or
> > > GF3. System is a PIII 1GHZ, 512 meg ram. I can run GPL at 1024x768x16
w/
> > > 2xFSAA and get 36 fps at all original papy tracks. Maybe a slight drop
> at
> > > the end of the field when the flag drops. Some of the addons, I have
to
> > drop
> > > down to 800x600. For N4, I run 800x600 w/ 2x FSAA and usually get
> anywhere
> > > from high 30's to 50's. Thats with 15 cars drawn ahead, 3 behind,
world
> > > detail slider set kind of high. I am using 3dfx's 1.04.01 beta drivers
> > with
> > > x3dfx's drivers. Heard people talk about using V6000 drivers for
better
> > > results, but haven't tried it myself. In another computer I have a
PIII
> > > 750MHZ, 256 megs ram, and a Hercules Prophet MX II. I get about the
same
> > > performance, but I like the image quality better on my V5. I've set up
> the
> > > V5 using the tweak guide over at 3dSpotlight.
> > > http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> > > Anthony
> > Anthony,
> > I think you and I are on the same page as far as performance goes... I
> have
> > read that the V5 scales fairly well with more processor speed and that
is
> > born out in the numbers you have stated in relation to mine. I failed to
> > mention the settings I am using graphics wise in both sims. GPL has all
> > graphics maxed out except no drivers arms (I find them distracting) and
no
> > crowds... everything else is fully enabled.
> > N4 I have "Car Detail" set to "High, "World Detail" set to 75%, "Drawing
> > Distance Ahead" set to 100%, "In Mirror" set to 15%. I have the "Maximum
> > Opponents" settings at "Ahead = 12" and "In Mirror = 3".
> > "Mirror Objects" set to "medium" and "Trackside Objects" set to "some".
I
> > have the "Steering Wheel" setting turned off but all other graphics
> effects
> > are enabled.
> > I use the 1.04.1 3dfx drivers in conjunction with the x3dfx drivers as
> well.
> > I have used the tweak guide at 3dSpotlight... printed it out as a matter
> of
> > fact and refer to it often. I've never heard of the V6000 drivers. I
guess
> > my 1.2ghz. Athlon is what allows me to run with the same fps you get at
> the
> > next higher resolution and still maintaining use of 2X FSAA.
> > Thanks for the comparisons.
> > Robin
DC
> Motherboard Asus K7V, KX133, 5PCI, 0ISA, AGP 4X, ATA66
> Athlon CPU AMD Athlon 800MHz, 3DNOW, 512Kcache
> CPU Cooler CPU cooler/heatsink for Pentium II/Athlon CPU's
> 768MB RAM 7 ns, PC133, CAS 2 -133MHz
> ATX Midtower 3- 5?" & 5- 3?" (2 open) bays, 300 Watt PS, 2 extra fans
> Hard Drive Maxtor 30.7GB Diamondmax Plus 40 9ms 7200RPM ATA66 2M
> > I guess this goes to robin, Anthony , and of course Remco (who IMO made
> the
> > sweetest pass I ever seen at VROC in my 2 1/2 years there :o))
> > I purchased a gf 3 some time ago but have never been totally satisfied
> with
> > it. I want to put back in my V5. GPL will work fine but N4 is the one I
am
> > concerned about. I thought that it ran better with the GF3. I had to
run
> it
> > in D3d with the V5. If I could get N4 up to***I would put the card
> back
> > in. What drivers would you recommend for the V5? Where can I find them?
> Any
> > known tweaks that will help me with N4? I also seen that wicked gl was
> > recommended at the tweak page. does anyone use that with their v5?
> > Any info would be appreciated. Miss my voodoo...
> > Dave Ciemny
> > Mookytc
> > > > I still run a V5500. Honestly, I've thought about replacing it for a
> GF2
> > > or
> > > > GF3. System is a PIII 1GHZ, 512 meg ram. I can run GPL at
1024x768x16
> w/
> > > > 2xFSAA and get 36 fps at all original papy tracks. Maybe a slight
drop
> > at
> > > > the end of the field when the flag drops. Some of the addons, I have
> to
> > > drop
> > > > down to 800x600. For N4, I run 800x600 w/ 2x FSAA and usually get
> > anywhere
> > > > from high 30's to 50's. Thats with 15 cars drawn ahead, 3 behind,
> world
> > > > detail slider set kind of high. I am using 3dfx's 1.04.01 beta
drivers
> > > with
> > > > x3dfx's drivers. Heard people talk about using V6000 drivers for
> better
> > > > results, but haven't tried it myself. In another computer I have a
> PIII
> > > > 750MHZ, 256 megs ram, and a Hercules Prophet MX II. I get about the
> same
> > > > performance, but I like the image quality better on my V5. I've set
up
> > the
> > > > V5 using the tweak guide over at 3dSpotlight.
> > > > http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> > > > Anthony
> > > Anthony,
> > > I think you and I are on the same page as far as performance goes... I
> > have
> > > read that the V5 scales fairly well with more processor speed and that
> is
> > > born out in the numbers you have stated in relation to mine. I failed
to
> > > mention the settings I am using graphics wise in both sims. GPL has
all
> > > graphics maxed out except no drivers arms (I find them distracting)
and
> no
> > > crowds... everything else is fully enabled.
> > > N4 I have "Car Detail" set to "High, "World Detail" set to 75%,
"Drawing
> > > Distance Ahead" set to 100%, "In Mirror" set to 15%. I have the
"Maximum
> > > Opponents" settings at "Ahead = 12" and "In Mirror = 3".
> > > "Mirror Objects" set to "medium" and "Trackside Objects" set to
"some".
> I
> > > have the "Steering Wheel" setting turned off but all other graphics
> > effects
> > > are enabled.
> > > I use the 1.04.1 3dfx drivers in conjunction with the x3dfx drivers as
> > well.
> > > I have used the tweak guide at 3dSpotlight... printed it out as a
matter
> > of
> > > fact and refer to it often. I've never heard of the V6000 drivers. I
> guess
> > > my 1.2ghz. Athlon is what allows me to run with the same fps you get
at
> > the
> > > next higher resolution and still maintaining use of 2X FSAA.
> > > Thanks for the comparisons.
> > > Robin
David,
I have sent you zipped versions of both the 1.04.01 and the x3dfx drivers...
you'll find instructions on how to install the x3dfx drivers over the
1.04.01 drivers at --
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
along with a great, extensive article on the best way to tweak this card...
I have used the guide to setup my V5 and I have yet to find any other tip or
trick that has made the performance of my V5 significantly better.
If you were reading what my responce to Anthony was then you know that the
V5 (in my experience) scales very well with cpu horsepower. Processor prices
in the AMD line have never been lower and if your willing to part with a
little cash and upgrade your cpu (even a 1ghz. Athlon should oc to 1.2ghz.)
you will see similar fps to what I have on my system under d3d. Currently
running 1024 X 768 X 16 with 2X FSAA and not dropping under 38fps in any
situation. Add that to the fact that the FSAA looks great and I think it's
worth the trouble.
Regards,
Robin